Learning/rebuilding from my epic fail

[reefmutt]

Good evening! Heh.. Big things.. Well.. Not huge but here's my update.
Matt, your description of the AIO pellets seems plausible.. I really have no idea if there is gfo in them... Could be..
So numbers. Since last Wednesday I have removed the cheato and stopped all vsv- right in the money, Matt!
N is holding at .75 and p is at .06. I have not tried to manipulate that because if Matt is correct, p should fall on its own due to the AIO pellets.. At any rate, I'm not too enthusiastic about dosing n. I still have slightly cloudy water, bryopsis, cyano and the front glass needs cleaning daily or I can't see into the tank. So, even though I am getting low readings on my tests, there is plenty of nutrient to go around.
Corals are so, so. I have a lost only a few but several that began paleing or browning haven't changed much. Some of the deep waters are perfect.. It's really random which are weathering the storm and which are not.. I added a few frags last week after things had stabilized a bit and they re doing the best.
I have gotten into a feeding routine as well so nutrients are staying stable at the moment. I wil add more fish because I do want to bring the n up a little. Since adding the recirculating reactor with a control valve, I have it turned down pretty low so I don't have a lot of flow from it into the tank this seems to be allowing me to keep n at all.
Next, a few lousy pics.. I'll start with the ugly and move up to bad and then the good (ish)
Ugly:
Ssc:

This one had better pe and a little more color but it's hanging in.

This one had great pe but has lost it as well as some color

This one had amazing sky blue growth tipe when I got it.. Not so much now..

 

[reefmutt]

Ok next..
This was such a strong metallic green when I got it.. I know green.. But really cool growth pattern.. Hopefully color and growth will return..

A not great ice/fire echinata shot. This one was added last so it has seen the best stability. Hopefully it'll hang in there.

Another that had fantastic growth tips but now is just green..

Again. It's a waiting game now..

 

[reefmutt]

And here a few that have barely noticed all the turmoil in the tank..
Not sure Biggles is even checking in here anymore since there's nithingbto look at but here's his favorite piece.. It's even grown a tiny bit..
RR red dragon:

These next ones have been in as long as the red which is basically through all the hell that broke loose..

 

[reefmutt]

Here's a coupl of new ones that seem to be doing very well so far..
Cali tort.. With a cobalt tort in the back..

A tabling acro.. Not sure what..

Well.. That's about it for now..
I'm going to try to get better photos but the cloudy water I really a total pita..
Gotta wait it out!
I'll post a few more shots soon..

 

[mhucasey]

Quick question Matt, what is the flow rate through the pellet reactor and total system volume? I'm happy to hear your success, I will have more later

 

[mhucasey]

I am so excited to see your tank progress, nothing good happens too fast with SPS as you know but it looks like you are starting to pull out of it.:celeb1: I am Highly jealous of your smooth-skinned("deepwater") acro collection. I like the variety of forms that acropora come in but if I had to choose one, the smooth skin and tubular coralites are my favorite. What is your combination when all lights are on at "Noon" in the reef?(Which bulbs?what settings?)

As for your to do list, keep in mind you will not get rid of Bryopsis without manual removal or something that eats or pulls it out. It is weaker if it is in high flow areas, as in low flow areas it collects detritus and the rotting gunk feeds it. I don't know what to make of how long it takes to get glass dirty. I hear some people say that it takes a week or more between cleanings when their system is good, I have never come close to that. When I have nutrient spikes now(very small ones like after killing algae or fragging corals) the glass needs to be cleaned once a day or everything is a bit hazy, and from the side the pane looks brownish or greenish.
When its humming really well I can go 3 days before the haziness bugs me and the haze is usually brown in this case. Algae on the glass can become a good indicator for you once everything is dialed in.

Now that you are switched over to the pellets, I would be interested in what your flow through is in relation to your system volume. I have tweaked the flow through my reactor so that as of tonight's measurement, the flow is 156LPH or ~41GPH. That ended up being slower than my reference tank indicated, but it seems to be keeping things in check without cyano showing up on the sand.

I originally targeted the flow that Kryztoff(lunar) was using, he stated 500LPH through his reactor for a system that is 200Gallons. If I roughly cut that in half the 250LPH was way too much for my 120Gallon system, cyano started in on the sand like that. Anyhow, at least this gives you a reference point when you set your flow rate.

Continued good luck and thanks for the awesome update!

 

[sahin]

I am jealous of your deepwater collection as well Matt. Apart from the SSC and the Aussie Echinata, the rest look quite happy. Will be following keenly to see how this AIO pellets work out for you. All that I've seen so far suggests it is a very good product.

 

[markalot]

Looks good Matt, even the colorless ones look ready to recover! I also love all the smooth skinned species.

 

[trueblackpercula]

Hey Matt everything looks like they are returning for you.

Michael

 

[mhucasey]

Where is this week's update Matt? Hope everything is continuing to improve!

 

[reefmutt]

Matt, I really apreciate you taking such interest in my tank!
I haven't been posting anything due to my frustration and also because I was getting ready to go away for a week. I am in Sanibel, Florida right now with my parents are trudging over to my house in Montreal to feed the fish once a day..

Last week I had turned down the flow through my pellet reactor and saw a small uptick in nutrients. They went to 2ppm n and .08 p. But with me away and the tank getting less food, I assume that may drop a bit, so I didn't adjust anything.
Before I left, the tank was still constantly cloudy with rampant cyano all over the rocks and sand. Glass is turning green daily and corals are for the most part not doing great. Some are fine but most are just hanging in there.
The bryopsis is not growing rapidly, however and I have been manually removing it. I'm not sure what the tank will look like when I get home on the weekend and I am having trouble caring that much. It's been 3 years of my tank, in its current location, doing only mediocrely well.. Not sure how much more of this I feel like watching.
I'm not finished, that's for sure. I'll give it the whole summer and I will try to not make any big changes..
I would say that my flow through the pellet reactor is probably around 80g or 310 ish L per hour. My system volume is 300 gallons.. If I reduce the throughput any more I think my nutrients will jump..
I'll see where the numbers are when I get home and act accordingly.
As for lighting, my 3 GHL Mitras are running at about 40% max intensity at their apex of the day with mostly blue leds running. If Blues were at 100, whites would be at around 20%. I have 2x Giesemann actinic + 2giesemann Lagoon blue and a Ati coral plus over the tank and then a set of 2x 24 pure actinics on either side of the tank aiming inwards. The 2 x150w radiums come on for 3 two hour intervals during the day.
I really don't see any pattern to which corals do well and which start to go downhill. Some old ones are good and some old ones are almost dead. Same for newer additions. I guess it's just depends on the coral and its ability to adapt.
Sahin, Mark, Mike, thanks for hangin' in!
I think that the macro shots make things look better than they really are... Or maybe I'm just really pessimistic at the moment....
I'll post some results on Sunday!

 

[mhucasey]

Enjoy your time in Florida, try not to worry about the tank since you can't do anything about it right now. Who knows, maybe leaving the tank status quo for a while will be what it needs.
I think the flow through the reactor is good, at 80 gph that means the tank volume is turned over six and a half times per day.

Why do you have the radiums turn on and off during the day?

Hang in there Matt!

 

[reefmutt]

Thanks! Always nice to get away.
no particular reason to have the mh on intervals, really..
I just did it that way..
i may increase to a constant 6-7 hours in the future..

 

[mhucasey]

hmm. Well sometimes its helpful to eliminate possible sources of problems, no matter how unlikely they may be. I would run the Least amount of light that allows viewing for the full 12 hours and then use the full lighting for a solid 7 or 8 hours. That way you are in line with 90+ percent of the tanks out there and you can more easily eliminate the lighting as a causative factor in any issues that you have.

When i did my experiment with running 4 bulbs as my dusk/dawn lighting then 8 bulbs for the 7 hour "higher light" period I didn't have any losses, but the corals seemed "worn out" by the end of the day. There was a subtle color shift and there would be less PE near the end of the day. From my understanding, when the corals hit their daily photosaturation point, they spend any extra energy gained by photosynthesis for repairing the damage done by the overexposure of light. Something to consider.

 

[sahin]

Matt in respect of the Cyanno, do you have the output of the pellet reactor going to your skimmers intake or at least VERY near it?

 

[reefmutt]

Hey sahin, my pellet reactor is pretty much directly into my skimmer- not completely but close.. my skimmer sits in its own tank which is in line between my settling sump (right after the dt) and main sump. All water from the dt passes through it and the pellet reactor takes up and releases its water from this section along with the skimmer.

Because my tested nutrient levels are low ish (but obviously not 0) and my corals look like they are starved yet I have huge algea buildup I find myself in a bind...
I could easily pull nutrients down lower with vinegar and/or more skimming and/or more reactor flow but that would just knock the corals back even more.. But at the moment I seem to just be feeding nuisance algaes and not the corals.

Matt, with my leds turned down so low and having only 2 150w mh bulbs and 5 t5 bulbs of real significance -2 of which are only blue- I really don't think I am anywhere close to photo saturation....
Do you think I am??
Maybe with starved corals, I am running too much light.. Maybe I'll turn the leds off completely for a while.. Just run the mh and t5..
The time scheduel you describe is pretty much why I do. The leds ramp up and down over about 16 hours but are only at any significant output for about 8 hours. Most of the t5 are only on for about that long as well- maybe ten hours. The pure actinics are on for closer to 13 hours but they are only 24 w pure actinics. I doubt they could stress the corals even if they were on 24/7..
But I really think think the cloudy water algea bloom is my real problem, at the moment.. and I'm not sure how to deal with it..
Maybe a good old fashion diatom filter is needed... I hate using those things, the diatom powder scares me..
I'm going to consider a diatom filter to polish the water but I don't know if it'll really eradicate the floating algea..

 

[sahin]

Hey sahin, my pellet reactor is pretty much directly into my skimmer- not completely but close.. my skimmer sits in its own tank which is in line between my settling sump (right after the dt) and main sump. All water from the dt passes through it and the pellet reactor takes up and releases its water from this section along with the skimmer.

Because my tested nutrient levels are low ish (but obviously not 0) and my corals look like they are starved yet I have huge algea buildup I find myself in a bind...
I could easily pull nutrients down lower with vinegar and/or more skimming and/or more reactor flow but that would just knock the corals back even more.. But at the moment I seem to just be feeding nuisance algaes and not the corals.

Matt, with my leds turned down so low and having only 2 150w mh bulbs and 5 t5 bulbs of real significance -2 of which are only blue- I really don't think I am anywhere close to photo saturation....
Do you think I am??
Maybe with starved corals, I am running too much light.. Maybe I'll turn the leds off completely for a while.. Just run the mh and t5..
The time scheduel you describe is pretty much why I do. The leds ramp up and down over about 16 hours but are only at any significant output for about 8 hours. Most of the t5 are only on for about that long as well- maybe ten hours. The pure actinics are on for closer to 13 hours but they are only 24 w pure actinics. I doubt they could stress the corals even if they were on 24/7..
But I really think think the cloudy water algea bloom is my real problem, at the moment.. and I'm not sure how to deal with it..
Maybe a good old fashion diatom filter is needed... I hate using those things, the diatom powder scares me..
I'm going to consider a diatom filter to polish the water but I don't know if it'll really eradicate the floating algea..

Matt, this is what I think:

1. A lot of damage will occur to the Acros, WAY before you even deal with the algae by reducing nutrients any further. IME many algaes can exist in VERY LOW NUTRIENT systems and for these algae issues reducing nutrients wont get rid of the algae. Manual and biological control or direct approach like Kent Mg is needed.

2. At the moment you mention rampant Cyano in your tank. IMO you MAY need to reduce the amount of pellets; however given that it is early days yet, maybe give the tank a week or two more. Like with vodka dosing when there is an excess of a carbon source, Cyano appears. I remember when I used Zeovit years ago, I reduced the flow in my Zeo reactor and upped the Carbon source. Within 36 hours Cyano appear over my sandbed and covered at least 40% of it. At first I though the worst and expected a massive battle with Cyano for a few months...but I thought about what I had changed I simply reversed what I did; increased the flow in the reactor and reduced the carbon source; within a matter of 12-16 hours the Cyano completely vanished. So my thining about that situation was that by decreasing the flow in the reactor I reduced the biological activity (as there was less flow) and the availability of extra carbon within the display as a whole allowed Cayano to appear. AIO Pellets seems to be one of the best ones out there; so as I said earlier, maybe give it a bit more time.

3. Bryopsis; I dont think you can starve them out. Just an idea...but if this were my tank; I'd pull all the affected rocks, place them into a tank without lights and basically treat them with Kent Magnesium. In a smaller vessal you wont need to use as much of the Kent stuff (cheaper) and you can scrub a rock or two every day and kill the stuff. This way your acros dont sufffer from the increased magnesium levels.

Anyway mate, just a bunch of ideas...I looked back at the first couple of pages of this thread and seriously, the photos of your old tank just had me glued to the screen. You had an amazing system...I really hope the troubles/turbulent reefing times end for you and the good old days come back.

 

[Cyberdude]

Hello reefmutt. Good to finally meet someone from Montreal!
I've toyed with gfo and carbon for a while. Always ended up affecting my tank in a negative way. When it's on too high, non of the corals are happy and I get cyano. I took it offline for a month and did weekly 10% water changes to return the tank to a stable state. I've just re-introduced gfo and carbon but it is literally dripping out of the reactor. See how it goes this time around.

3 year old tank as well.

 

[reefmutt]

Thanks, sahin..
1- agreed 100% I'm waiting on tech M but it's in my back pocket..
2 yes. I'm going to wait a few more weeks.. I'm curious to see what it looks like after my trip. The tank is getting at least 50% less food than when I am home so if the fish seem ok and nutrients are ok I might play with keeping feeding down and reducing the pellets even more..
3- I am extremely reluctant to remove the rocks. Won't be simple. Never is I guess. I'll keep on the manual removal and consider finding a fish to eat it.. Funny thing is that my yellow tang will eat free floating strands of it in one gulp but he won't pull it off the rocks. But atm, the bryopsis is not growing quickly..
Thanks for the encouragement! If I hadn't had the taste of success, there is absolutely NO WAY I would still be at this!!
One point.. Up until about 3 weeks ago I had my frag system on with cheato in one tank and corals in another. This system was even more full of various algae. I finally cleared it all out and shut off the lights. some cyano and hair algea was still in there... Certainly, all of this has been dying off and probably increasing dissolved nutrients in the system.. This is also why i will be waiting a few more weeks at least before I do anything drastic..

 

[glaukos]

Hope everything will be ok matt!
Hang in there and don't give up!
I can feel you buddy,in the last 3-4 weeks i've my hands in the tank more than ever manually removing hair algea

On a side note,i agree with sahin!
Kent M is a better way than starving your system.