Learning/rebuilding from my epic fail

[jroovers]

Matt, how long are you running your MHs? It sounds like to me you still have a lot of light between the LED and the T5s. After starving corals, I've found they are very reluctant to start colouring back up, so I'm not surprised you would see nuisance algae before seeing the corals coming around... I think patience is the best the approach, as you seem to be leaning towards.

 

[reefmutt]

Hey cyberdude! I used to know a great group of serious reefers in Montreal. Most of them have since gotten out of the hobby but there are still quite a few reefers around..
I'm not a huge fan of gfo but some have success using it properly. Carbon, I use a small amount of fairly regularly.
Glad to have you following.. Hopefully soon I'll have something worth looking at..

Mike, thanks! I hope I can get this bloody tank back on track!!!

Jordan, the mh are on for three 1.5 to 2 hour intervals. But keep in mind that they are only 150w de hanging about 10 inches above the tank. It's really not a lot of light.. I don't think..

I think I will turn off the leds when I get home and just do with the t5 and mh for now.
Unless anybody thinks that even without the LEDs I still have too much light for the suffering corals......
But patience is definitely the word of the day going forward. I will have to just maintain stability and wait it out..

 

[jroovers]

I agree, wait it out, but I'd lean to less light than more for the time being.

 

[reefmutt]

Yes, sounds like good advice..

 

[mhucasey]

Hi Matt, how is everything doing?

 

[reefmutt]

Hey Matt, well it was mostly bad news when I got back home but since correcting the significant drop in parameters and nutrient levels that happened, things are somewhat better, I guess..
I lost several pieces due to the changes in the tank.
When I got back, I took Jordan's advice and turned off the leds. I'll leave them off for now.
I also got back into the 2x day feedings which brought up nitrients a bit.
When I got home, they had dropped to .5 n and .02 p. That drop along with a drop in cal/alk, hit some of the corals that were already stressed (as they all are) pretty hard and they couldn't hang on.
Once feeding a bit more, n and p went up a bit but recently p started to climb and n stayed below 1ppm.
Instead of using a phosphate remover, I have begun adding a bit of cano3 to bring up the n- that should pull down p a little and achieve a better ration of an and p. My last test showed n at .75 and p at .13.

I'll see where they are this weekend with the n additions.

On the positive side, the algea bloom in the water seems to be almost gone. It's nice to have clear water again...
For some reason, through all of this my little red dragon continues to grow.. Pretty slowly but it is definetly growing..
I should post a pic of it since it's pretty much the only sps that is really doing ok..
All of my lps are doing great...

So.. I am staying the course and trying to keep interventions as subtle as possible.. I still have a lot of cyano but it's a bit better, as well- bryopsis is also growing very slowly..

We shall see.. In general, the tank is inching towards a better state... But inching is the word of the day... And week... And month...

 

[mhucasey]

Matt, I'm baffled and bummed that you haven't seen better results yet. I think keeping the nitrate from crashing and turning the LEDs off are both good ideas. The clear water is also good, I have had very clear water ever since the pellets were functioning, but I have no clue where the phosphate is coming from. I don't think that phosphate tests are very reliable or accurate, even with the pricey meter I use(Milwaukee). That's a big part of the reason why I didn't order more reagent when I ran out. I have no idea what the phosphate value is right now and don't really care anymore.
What did your calcium and alk drop to? Did you test potassium? What is the flow rate through the pellet reactor?

 

[reefmutt]

You and me both baffled and bummed!!
Alk went from 7.5 to 6. Cal from 420 to 380. Mag dropped to around 1280 from 1400. Not a big shift but coupled with the drop in nutrients... Wasn't pretty. I'm sure in an otherwise stable tank, this would have had little effect on the tank but since the sps are mostly so iffy To begin with, they weren't healthy enough to take it..
I am happy about the water clearing and I have temporarily redirected my obsession towards favias, favites, chalices and other corals like that. They are doing very nicely.
I think the p popped up because the n went down too low.. I suspect it'll go down with the n additions..... I'll be able to see in a few days, no doubt... I don't like to have to do this nutrient engineering, however. I'm sure the sps aren't happy about it..
I use both a Hanna ULR phosphorus egg and the Elos high resolution p test kits. Together, they give pretty consistent results, I find..
K I have not tested, but I am doing regular 10% wcs with Red Sea coral pro or dd h2 ocean.
I will test k tonight and do an actual flow test on my AIO reactor and let you know..

 

[mhucasey]

Oh crap! Stay away from Red Sea coral pro!! I started my tank with that stuff and had suffering SPS for months til I found out it's really low in potassium. It's alk is way too high too. I would test K with a Salifert test. Don't use any other, order it online if you can't get it local. It's cheap compared with other Salifert tests.

 

[reefmutt]

Well all I can say is....

:headwally::headwally::headwally:

I'll get salt and a salifert k test kit, today if I can..

Thanks!

 

[mhucasey]

When I started my tank I bought the 200 gallon bag of Red Sea coral pro- because it was the most expensive salt the LFS had, and it said "coral" and "pro" on it. I've seen a lot of threads with mysteriously suffering tanks that use this stuff. I gather that the blue bucket is better, but I won't buy from Red Sea again. If money is no object I use ESV or brightwell, otherwise good old IO is just fine. I'm a month away from one year with no water changes right now though, so my boxes of ESV are just taking up space...

 

[JB NY]

Oh crap! Stay away from Red Sea coral pro!! I started my tank with that stuff and had suffering SPS for months til I found out it's really low in potassium. It's alk is way too high too. I would test K with a Salifert test. Don't use any other, order it online if you can't get it local. It's cheap compared with other Salifert tests.

I have not read about low Potassium on RSCP, I switched to that from Oceanic, largely because with Triton tests people got some of the best numbers coming from RSCP. Other than having high alk, I have not noticed any problems with it.

 

[reefmutt]

Well.. I was using io for quite some time but I recently got a bucket of the coral pro so I was using it up.
I have some reef crystals kicking around as well... And io, actually..
Anyways, I couldn't find a salifert test kit so I'll have to see what my Red Sea I test kit gives me.

 

[mhucasey]

Ahhh, the Red Sea Potassium Kit - best when titrating using natural light. That color change is very subtle. Potassium is very stable for most people once its at NSW levels but if it starts out low or gets driven down and not replenished it can cause all kinds of problems for SPS. I tried a quick search for the study that tested Red Sea Coral Pro's potassium levels but didn't find it right away. It was the only salt i used when I started my tank and based on the study(which showed it having potassium levels around 250 if I remember correctly), I added potassium chloride to the tank, keeping track of how much I added. After adding enough to raise levels by 100ppm the corals started turning around. I kept adding it as a regular thing and switched salts.
I couldn't test at that time because the only hobbyist test kit then was the zeovit test, and it wasn't available and didn't work very well anyway. When I finally got a test kit it was a Red Sea kit and I showed 430-440. I eventually got the Salifert kit and came in right at 400.

For the past year I've been at 420-430 with no direct potassium dosing(it is in the FM color elements though), and then in the last few weeks it has dropped off bit until a couple of days ago when I read 400. The corals seem to have been healthier at 420 than 400, but Im going to keep watching this. I think Potassium is an often overlooked element.

 

[mhucasey]

I have not read about low Potassium on RSCP, I switched to that from Oceanic, largely because with Triton tests people got some of the best numbers coming from RSCP. Other than having high alk, I have not noticed any problems with it.

The big thing that is different about Red Sea Coral Pro is that it is dehydrated seawater - not made up from the various components. They must add back alkalinity and calcium but Im not sure what else they supplement. Surprisingly, its loaded with bacteria even though its dehydrated.

Many reefers have had bad experiences with it, most times I see the "Blue Bucket" non pro version recommended instead. One issue with it may be inconsistency with the batches. It's worth testing potassium, perhaps they supplement now or your batch is higher in potassium, but its good to check. Triton numbers for many of the elements are probably better because it isn't using mined salt.

 

[bklynreef123]

Learning/rebuilding from my epic fail

Just stumbled on this thread and can't wait to read through the whole thing. I have recently stopped using RSCP the alk seems to be very high.

 

[JB NY]

Hmm that is interesting. Other than the Alk being high, I have not had any problems with it.

I switched to RSCP from oceanic when trying to fix a bad funk my tank was in back in December. I did well over 450 gallons of water changes over a three week period. The corals responded very well, and I turned my tank around. I really like how clear it mixes up, and how fast I can use it. Time will tell. I'll probably pick up a Salifert Potassium kit just to be on the safe side though.

 

[mhucasey]

Hmm that is interesting. Other than the Alk being high, I have not had any problems with it.

I switched to RSCP from oceanic when trying to fix a bad funk my tank was in back in December. I did well over 450 gallons of water changes over a three week period. The corals responded very well, and I turned my tank around. I really like how clear it mixes up, and how fast I can use it. Time will tell. I'll probably pick up a Salifert Potassium kit just to be on the safe side though.

Doesn't its high Alkalinity complicate water changes for You? I had read Alk as high as 14 to 16 when I used it. Since I keep the tank at lower than 8(and closer to 6 most of the time) it would throw off my alkalinity if I used it.

If you like clear, fast mixing and consistent results you definitely should try the ESV salt kit. You can literally have usable saltwater in 10-15 minutes, no joke.

 

[JB NY]

The high alk is but of a pain, but so far nothing really unmanageable. I have about 400 G total, I do about a 40 gallon WC. If I don't do anything, just do a straight water change, the RSCP It pulls my alk up about 0.8 dkH. I keep it around 7.7-8.0, I have only frags in the tank now so my Ca Reactor is running really low (I can't get it dialed in perfect) and I lose about 0.15 dKh a day so, it evens out in a few days.

If I need to keep the alk consistent during a WC, I use muriatic acid to drop the alk to 8. Takes about 15ml, pulls the pH down in the RSCP a lot, but I don't notice a significant change on the tank pH when I do the WC.

RSCP cost me about $50 for the bucket, ESV is a lot more. If I could find a salt that mixed good, had low alk and good Ca and Mg I would probably try that but so far all the decent mixes seem to have crazy high alk anyway.

 

[mhucasey]

My best results mixing wise and repeatability wise were with the Brightwell salt and the ESV(I mixed it to a lower alkj). Instant ocean worked fine also, but it has high Alk and it has a lot of clay which leaves a residue.
I tried KZ Reefer's best - expensive and seemed no different from the Brightwell to me.
There was one other brand I tried that seemed pretty close to IO

I'm thinking more and more that many of the salts are kind of a scam. There are just as many amazing tanks that use IO as any other salt. After using ESV, I know I could easily make my own salt mix up from scratch, Glennf has done it for years and I have the recipe.