Learning/rebuilding from my epic fail
- Thread starter reefmutt
- Start date
trueblackpercula
New member
Ok so I can say that after almost a month of this my sps have some really good color and my algea problems are almost gone >>>> http://glassbox-design.com/2008/achieved-through-observation-and-experimentation/
tripdad
Frustrated Stick Gardener
Interesting link Michael, there is one line in there that sounds like a clue."This occurs from overdosing a carbon source which then clouds the water milky white. Unfortunately this can cause systems to crash from oxygen depletion as the bacteria utilize what available oxygen there is, suffocating your fish and corals". Not saying this has happened but is an interesting bit of info I had not heard before.
trueblackpercula
New member
Oh yes this can occur, this is why a skimmer is a must when car on dosing. Also over dosing is the most common problem as most people think more is better when in fact less is a lot more. It doesn't take much for this carbon source to start working quickly and remember its four of them all working at the same time. Vodka sugar vinegar and bioptim say that vfiv times fast. Lol
reefmutt
Active member
Tripdad, thank you for all of your support. Patience is absolutely key to this hobby. The bad stuff happens overnight but the good things always forever..
The corals are doing fairly well but please I ably will take several weeks to recover.. So, I'll have to watch and wait.
Gfo has its applications, but I don't think my p is off enough to need it..
reefmutt
Active member
Mike, you are preaching to the quire. I've been vsv dosing for a long time and it has been very effective for me.
They say, in that article, how good the results they got were but they don't say what their target numbers are/were.... I don't think- maybe I missed it.
I'm not sure the bottled bacteria is really necessary as most of the strains are probably naturally occurring in most aquariums... But I'm no biologist.
I have seen biopellets almost crash a tank when the tank went milky. They were removed and the tank went back to normal within a day. The n and p were extremely high in that tank, though.
Maybe in my case, it was the pellets (I had stopped vsv at that point) combined with the fistfuls of food I was adding to try to raise nutrients that caused the cloudiness-combined also with the shredded anemone.
Maybe it was the zooanthellea from the anemone that were released from the anemone that went into a bloom... Again, I'm no biologist.. Not sure if that's even possible..
They say, in that article, how good the results they got were but they don't say what their target numbers are/were.... I don't think- maybe I missed it.
I'm not sure the bottled bacteria is really necessary as most of the strains are probably naturally occurring in most aquariums... But I'm no biologist.
I have seen biopellets almost crash a tank when the tank went milky. They were removed and the tank went back to normal within a day. The n and p were extremely high in that tank, though.
Maybe in my case, it was the pellets (I had stopped vsv at that point) combined with the fistfuls of food I was adding to try to raise nutrients that caused the cloudiness-combined also with the shredded anemone.
Maybe it was the zooanthellea from the anemone that were released from the anemone that went into a bloom... Again, I'm no biologist.. Not sure if that's even possible..
mhucasey
Acros & wieners, oh my!
Shredded anemones are big time bad news, even if you can't see them, tons of un-fired nematocysts float around the tank waiting to bump into your corals. That is in addition to the large amount of decaying matter that is suddenly introduced to your tank. I've heard some real horror stories on here before...
reefmutt
Active member
Well.. The corals were not happy for the few days directly after the shredding- when it was very cloudy. I also added a lot of carbon which may or may not have helped remove some of the anemone poison but I'm sure it stripped out some beneficial nutrients..
Actually, the corals responded quite favorably to the waterchange I did.. I may do another tonight...10%..
Actually, the corals responded quite favorably to the waterchange I did.. I may do another tonight...10%..
trueblackpercula
New member
Well I hope your system come back quick.
Michael
Michael
sahin
Ultimate Reefer
Water changes and running fine filter floss and discarding it every day will help a lot. Maybe even stuff a GFO reactor with a load of filter wool and run it with a decent flow on the pump...as the filter wool begins to clog it will capture smaller and smaller particles.
I would carry out 10-15% water changes every 3 days for at least 8 days...with thoroughly mixed saltwater. It might not be practical for your tank size, but water changes are my number 1 treatment for most coral issues or events like this.
Mat, you got to load some more pics here bro, can't wait to see it Im sure you will have it looking like your original setup within no time.
I`m waiting for my Tunze 6105`s to crap out....wishfull thinking
before I get a Gyre`s, but I will wait until they iron out the noise/vibration issues first.
My setup is almost complete just got to plumb my two 50 gallon water change buckets and Im good. You can come by anytime when/if your on the Northshore and have a look. your always more than welcome .
I`m waiting for my Tunze 6105`s to crap out....wishfull thinking
before I get a Gyre`s, but I will wait until they iron out the noise/vibration issues first. My setup is almost complete just got to plumb my two 50 gallon water change buckets and Im good. You can come by anytime when/if your on the Northshore and have a look. your always more than welcome .
reefmutt
Active member
Good advice, sahin! Thanks for that. I am doing 10% twice a week. I do run a filter sock.. But the cloudiness isn't too bad anymore.
I've been adding some kz coral snow at night and it seems to be clearing things up a bit. The water changes, I definetly will stick with for a while.
Rob, thanks for the offer. I am in Laval periodically but usually running like crazy. I'd love to see your system in person. The build is coming along nicely!
I really don't find the gyres that noisy compared to pumps that more the same amount of water..
reefmutt
Active member
Well, Matt.. Just did n and p.
N is down to .5 and p is at .07..
I added extra cano3 to my vsv/cano3 mix but I think I might reduce it, or stop it completely- see if the pellets have begun to work..
I kind of want to remove my cheato.. I don't think I'll need it and it just makes a mess..
I do have to get n back up a touch and removing the cheato may achieve that without my adding cano3..
N is down to .5 and p is at .07..
I added extra cano3 to my vsv/cano3 mix but I think I might reduce it, or stop it completely- see if the pellets have begun to work..
I kind of want to remove my cheato.. I don't think I'll need it and it just makes a mess..
I do have to get n back up a touch and removing the cheato may achieve that without my adding cano3..
mhucasey
Acros & wieners, oh my!
Nice!!! Those are trending the right way for sure. I would keep an eye on the nitrate and not let it bottom out. As for the Phosphate, getting a reading on it has to be for "information only". When I switched over to the all-in-ones there was a bit of phosphate and low nitrate. I had to add nitrate for a month or so to keep it from bottoming out, then it stabilized about 2 ppm. No more dosing needed for at least two months now, and about the time of stabilization the tank started really humming.
I ran out of phosphate test packets about the time of stabilization and at that time tests were about 0.00 to 0.02. In my mind the nitrate value is a better indicator now, and of course the corals themselves. With phosphate low, the nitrate can't get totally stripped to nothing, and a portion of the phosphate is removed directly by the pellets. In any case, if I did a phosphate test now no matter what the number was I'd probably leave things as they are unless the corals started having issues.
I'm glad to hear things are stabilizing for you! Some pictures soon perhaps?
I ran out of phosphate test packets about the time of stabilization and at that time tests were about 0.00 to 0.02. In my mind the nitrate value is a better indicator now, and of course the corals themselves. With phosphate low, the nitrate can't get totally stripped to nothing, and a portion of the phosphate is removed directly by the pellets. In any case, if I did a phosphate test now no matter what the number was I'd probably leave things as they are unless the corals started having issues.
I'm glad to hear things are stabilizing for you! Some pictures soon perhaps?
mhucasey
Acros & wieners, oh my!
Oh and chaeto is good for collecting crud and not much else in my opinion, and you want to wean the system of the other export processes slowly. I'd pull the chaeto now and then cut the VSV dose down bit by bit to zero over the course of 2 or 3 weeks. Just keep the Nitrate from going undetectable
markalot
...
Catching up, interesting discussions. It's almost next Wednesday, big things happen on Wednesdays around here?
I find it either interesting or entertaining that All-In-One has GFO or some other PO4 remover built in. I suppose they are thinking more GFO will be exposed as the pellets dissolve and this helps keep PO4 in check? Seems like it would all depend on the tank and the rate of nitrate production as to how fast the GFO gets exhausted vs how fast new GFO is exposed.
I find it either interesting or entertaining that All-In-One has GFO or some other PO4 remover built in. I suppose they are thinking more GFO will be exposed as the pellets dissolve and this helps keep PO4 in check? Seems like it would all depend on the tank and the rate of nitrate production as to how fast the GFO gets exhausted vs how fast new GFO is exposed.
mhucasey
Acros & wieners, oh my!
Its pretty interesting from a couple of different angles:
1) GFO is an iron source, no matter what anyone tries to say to the contrary. Iron is an essential element for bacterioplankton growth. Putting an iron source and surface right at the same place as the carbon source is a good plan. Basically thats what Zeovit does as well, provides an iron-rich surface where the bacteria can grow. The question is, can the bacteria utilize the Phosphate that are attracted to the GFO?
2) The fact that the GFO is complexed with the pellet means that there is a slow exposure of the GFO and its Iron to the water. This prevents some of the issues with "Too much GFO".
3) The pellets simplify the balancing of the nitrate and phosphate with Carbon. In my system my nitrate is holding steady at 2ppm without direct dosing of nitrate any longer. I used to have to keep dosing it or it would eventually go to zero with regular pellets.
I think this is because the pellets balance themselves a bit:
a)Phospahtes too high, Nitrates too low, more phosphate binds to the pellets but there is not enough nitrate to grow much bacteria. Phosphate steadily removed.
b) Phosphates very low, nitrates high, pellets function more like standard pellets, growing larger amounts of bacteria and using any available phosphate for bacterial growth. Nitrate declines in this scenario.
Eventually these trend toward a balance where a small amount of nitrate and phosphate will be left in the system.
All my speculation based on observation and a lot of carbon-nitrate-phosphate experimentation over the last few years and now the last several months with the All in one pellets.
1) GFO is an iron source, no matter what anyone tries to say to the contrary. Iron is an essential element for bacterioplankton growth. Putting an iron source and surface right at the same place as the carbon source is a good plan. Basically thats what Zeovit does as well, provides an iron-rich surface where the bacteria can grow. The question is, can the bacteria utilize the Phosphate that are attracted to the GFO?
2) The fact that the GFO is complexed with the pellet means that there is a slow exposure of the GFO and its Iron to the water. This prevents some of the issues with "Too much GFO".
3) The pellets simplify the balancing of the nitrate and phosphate with Carbon. In my system my nitrate is holding steady at 2ppm without direct dosing of nitrate any longer. I used to have to keep dosing it or it would eventually go to zero with regular pellets.
I think this is because the pellets balance themselves a bit:
a)Phospahtes too high, Nitrates too low, more phosphate binds to the pellets but there is not enough nitrate to grow much bacteria. Phosphate steadily removed.
b) Phosphates very low, nitrates high, pellets function more like standard pellets, growing larger amounts of bacteria and using any available phosphate for bacterial growth. Nitrate declines in this scenario.
Eventually these trend toward a balance where a small amount of nitrate and phosphate will be left in the system.
All my speculation based on observation and a lot of carbon-nitrate-phosphate experimentation over the last few years and now the last several months with the All in one pellets.
