Learning/rebuilding from my epic fail

[mhucasey]

Thanks mark!
I don't really know how image sites and star wars are connected but I'll take your word for it!



Thanks, Matt.. I know you are right.. Such a pain...
If I just went with Aquaforest, all my troubles would just fade away!!!
Gonna watch your tank first!
I'm not where I want to be yet before I embark on a whole tank revolution like aquaforest.. But man o man, it's tempting.

So I may have found a green dragon..

I have it in 3 spots in the tank..
This piece was pale white when I got it.. It's coloured up now.. Not sure what it is.. Maybe turaki?

This guy Is also fairly new- fragbox Mail order.. Hoping it'll colour up more. Looking for more red.

Top:

Those first two are awesome, I love the "dragon" corals.

 

[slavetonet]

Matt,
I believe the reason you are having cyno issues is your red field ratio is out of wack.
If you PO4= 0.09 ppm, then your NO3 should be greater than 1.5ppm.
Preferably double at 3ppm.
I had similar issues before when I had very little NO3 and higher account of PO4.
It takes some time for it to work, but once the bacteria is balance, Cyno is a non-issue for you.

 

[nemodan]

Matt,
I believe the reason you are having cyno issues is your red field ratio is out of wack.
If you PO4= 0.09 ppm, then your NO3 should be greater than 1.5ppm.
Preferably double at 3ppm.
I had similar issues before when I had very little NO3 and higher account of PO4.
It takes some time for it to work, but once the bacteria is balance, Cyno is a non-issue for you.

This week my P is 0.06 ppm and N is 0.5 ppm (both Salifert kits) and I do not have any Ciano.

If I pick up your last part comment , "bacteria balance", I have been adding Biodigest (live bacterias) since I started my fuge and added a LOT of Matrix. Could be that is helping to keep the bacteria balance ?

Daniel

 

[reefmutt]

Those first two are awesome, I love the "dragon" corals.

Me too,Matt! I have to take a photo of my dragons all together.. Haven't done it yet but when they grow out a bit ill post a shot. I have this new green one glued near my red and a purple..

Matt,
I believe the reason you are having cyno issues is your red field ratio is out of wack.
If you PO4= 0.09 ppm, then your NO3 should be greater than 1.5ppm.
Preferably double at 3ppm.
I had similar issues before when I had very little NO3 and higher account of PO4.
It takes some time for it to work, but once the bacteria is balance, Cyno is a non-issue for you.

Thanks, slave, for the input and it is an interesting theory.. I'm not sure it has really ever been shown to really be true in an aquarium. The Redfield's ratio theory is very enticing, however..
I could certainly test out the theory simply by beginning to dose some n and getting my nitrate reading up a bit..
What worries me is that I'm fairly certain that my adding kno3 will actuall just feed the cyano and make it grow even more...
BUT, I will give it a shot, for curiosity's sake. I will change nothing else but add the kno3 for a while..
I'll keep you posted..

This week my P is 0.06 ppm and N is 0.5 ppm (both Salifert kits) and I do not have any Ciano.

If I pick up your last part comment , "bacteria balance", I have been adding Biodigest (live bacterias) since I started my fuge and added a LOT of Matrix. Could be that is helping to keep the bacteria balance ?

Daniel

Redfield's ratio would suggest that nitrates should be 16x higher than phosphates.
So Dan, with p at .06, your n should be at close to 1ppm to be 'balanced'
But this does not necessarily have anything to do with bacterial balance.. Although you'd hope that is one balance is there, the other one would as well..

 

[DiscusHeckel]

There is a long thread on another US forum about Redfield ratio and prominent contributors go at length to explain why it is not applicable to nitrates and phosphates. Even if there needs to be a balance between them, whether it is the Redfield ratio is another thing. Hans-Werner Balling refers to a supposed balance between nitrates and phosphates, but does not make direct reference to Redfield (as far as I remember, but I may be wrong. I need to check the German forum to which he contributes).

 

[reefmutt]

Thanks, Bulent. This is what I have learned as well..
This is why it worries me to try to add nitrate to a system (mine) which already has a healthy growth of cyano..

 

[markalot]

In my big tank cyano has come and gone a few times but never epic. In my smaller tank it's horrible and I have not been able to get rid of it. Dosed CaNO3, mixed Microbacter and Reef Snow, did lights out, and it always comes back. There is some kind of horrible imbalance that needs to be fixed but not sure what it is. PO4 reads near 0 due to the cyano sucking it all up (I assume).

 

[nemodan]

Thank you guys for teaching me about this Redfield ratio. There are sooooo many things I still need to learn, that can or cannot be affecting a reef tank, but they can be related.

I think I just have had a lot of luck with my tank......as of today.

Cheers
Daniel

 

[mhucasey]

Looking forward to your impressions of the Aquaforest salt

 

[reefmutt]

In my big tank cyano has come and gone a few times but never epic. In my smaller tank it's horrible and I have not been able to get rid of it. Dosed CaNO3, mixed Microbacter and Reef Snow, did lights out, and it always comes back. There is some kind of horrible imbalance that needs to be fixed but not sure what it is. PO4 reads near 0 due to the cyano sucking it all up (I assume).

I'm have
Ing the same problem.. The cyano is pulling nutrients down and when I try to keep them up to benefit the corals, the cyano grows faster. I just finished another round of cyano removing product- this time, chemi clean.. It did basically nothing. The corals seem happy, so it didn't bother them but my cyano seems to be 90% resistant to these products, now..
I'm not sure what I'm going to do next..
I have to alter the chemistry in the tank.. I'm thinking of starting to dose vinegar and kno3 .. This will basically remove p completely.. I guess I'll have to go slow..

I'd take other suggestions..

Thank you guys for teaching me about this Redfield ratio. There are sooooo many things I still need to learn, that can or cannot be affecting a reef tank, but they can be related.

I think I just have had a lot of luck with my tank......as of today.

Cheers
Daniel

Dan I don't think anybody really knows all the environmental processes that go on in a reef..
We try to control as many as we can.. Sometimes it works great and sometimes not..

Looking forward to your impressions of the Aquaforest salt

Well, it arrived tonight.. One week early!
I'm at a hockey arena and I got a text from my wife saying 3 heavy packages arrived for me and what the heck are they??
I told her they were a new dietary supplement program I was going to try..
She thought I was crazy.. I told her it was a metabolism booster to help me burn fat. And the only minor side effects were profuse sweating and uncontrollable flatulence..
She liked that..
Anyways, since I have all that useless cyano killing/skimmer exploding chemical in the system, I'll be wet skimming like crazy and adding salt to compensate..
I'll probably go through my 3 10kg containers pretty quick..
I hope they have more salt soon..

In general, the corals are doing amazingly well.. I wish I didn't have to intervene to try to arrest the cyano.. But clearly, with all the bubble, bryopsis and cyano, my tank is producing huge amounts of nutrients.. The corals seem to love it but so do the algea...
I have to change something....

 

[slavetonet]

I would have to say about cyno bacterial happens on my rock or sand when I overfeed or dump too much organic food source. i.e fish food pellets or frozen food uneaten.
The sand will get it, but it usually last about a few days and then gone within days.
I don't dose other chemical like chemi clean or whatever stuff to get rid of it.
Just let it naturally take its course, if my redfield ratio is correct, the right bacteria will eventually win out.
Never syphon my sand either, only done it 2 times in the 18 months. The last time I clean my sand, cyno outbreak for a week. It must of upset some balance of bacteria in the sand.

 

[madkeenreefer]

Lol and its only monday.. nice one..

Your tank is looking good dispite your set backs.. keep it up

 

[reefmutt]

I would have to say about cyno bacterial happens on my rock or sand when I overfeed or dump too much organic food source. i.e fish food pellets or frozen food uneaten.
The sand will get it, but it usually last about a few days and then gone within days.
I don't dose other chemical like chemi clean or whatever stuff to get rid of it.
Just let it naturally take its course, if my redfield ratio is correct, the right bacteria will eventually win out.
Never syphon my sand either, only done it 2 times in the 18 months. The last time I clean my sand, cyno outbreak for a week. It must of upset some balance of bacteria in the sand.

The problem I am having is that I don't get just a little cyano.. I get it ALL OVER. It covers the rocks and the sand and it gets thick.. When I try to add nitrate to get closer to a decent Redfield's ratio, the cyano grows faster and stronger.. I can't get there, the cyano get's there first.
The tank gets four cubes of frozen food twice a day and believe me, it's gone in seconds.
I tried upping my food to add nitrate and the cyano got so happy that n and p fell..
This is why I think need to start getting the bacteria consuming more nutrients- this is why I want to starte vinegar and kno3 additions.. To pull down p and maintain n..

Lol and its only monday.. nice one..

Your tank is looking good dispite your set backs.. keep it up

Thanks! I don't think my corals have been as happy as they are right now, sharing the space with the cyano carpet monster..

Well I got my salt. Each bucket comes with a small free bottle of NP Pro and a cool booklet describing all the products.. Got some reading to do!

 

[mhucasey]

I told her they were a new dietary supplement program I was going to try..
She thought I was crazy.. I told her it was a metabolism booster to help me burn fat. And the only minor side effects were profuse sweating and uncontrollable flatulence..
She liked that...

I don't need a supplement for that:lolspin:

 

[nemodan]

I don't need a supplement for that:lolspin:

I can't stop laughing :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[glaukos]

Can't wait to see the effects on your tank buddy:beer:
Keep us posted!

100% sure you'll lose some weight too

 

[mhucasey]

Matt, this will be of interest to you. I have been using the Aquaforest stuff for a week now, and I had some significant Cyano on the thin layer of sand in the tank. I did some searches for AquaForest and cyano, and came across some info that Coral B Plus the ProBio S could help. Coral B is like a liquid clay with some other elements in it and can be dosed at up to 3 drops per 100L. You can also dose more of the ProBio S bacteria than the normal daily dose.

Anyhow, I started dosing the two of those items after lights out once I siphoned out most of the sand. The Cyano has retreated significantly - even the remaining sand in the SPS reef has very little Cyano compared to before. The rocks are very clean as well. The combination of the two seems to be out-competing the Cyano. Still early, but I'm encouraged by the results so far

 

[reefmutt]

Can't wait to see the effects on your tank buddy:beer:
Keep us posted!

100% sure you'll lose some weight too

thanks Mike! I've added a few cups of the salt to make up for water loss from wet skimming.. I'll keep you posted.

Matt, this will be of interest to you. I have been using the Aquaforest stuff for a week now, and I had some significant Cyano on the thin layer of sand in the tank. I did some searches for AquaForest and cyano, and came across some info that Coral B Plus the ProBio S could help. Coral B is like a liquid clay with some other elements in it and can be dosed at up to 3 drops per 100L. You can also dose more of the ProBio S bacteria than the normal daily dose.

Anyhow, I started dosing the two of those items after lights out once I siphoned out most of the sand. The Cyano has retreated significantly - even the remaining sand in the SPS reef has very little Cyano compared to before. The rocks are very clean as well. The combination of the two seems to be out-competing the Cyano. Still early, but I'm encouraged by the results so far

Hm!! That's very interesting, Matt.. Not that I can really get the products, yet. I guess I could order from the US.. Seems only the salt is available here, so far.. I think it may change early in the new year.. I'm putting some pressure on some suppliers based around here... See what happens...

I'm am so frustrated with the cyano and bubble, I want to just adopt the full line of aquaforest to deal with it but at the same time I want to try to beat it the old fashioned way..
After my last treatment, almost nothing happened (basically none of the cyano died, it just stopped spreading) but a few days after dosing, n was down to below 1ppm and p was back up to .18..... Sigh..
And I have doubled food to try to increase n..
I've begun dosing nitrate to see if this will pull p down a bit. And bring up n a bit as well..
If this doesn't work, I will add vinegar to the mix..
By the time this is implemented and I see an effect one way or the other, I'll know where I'll have to get aquaforest from..
Corals do continue to look great... And I may have paid a little visit to Raging Reef and picked up a few more frags. I got a really special deep water with very very fine branches.. Once the pieces settle in, I'll get some shots. Raja's pieces usually take a bit of time to settle into my tank because he keeps his tank so low nutrient and my water is like the St. Lawrence River (i.e. Dirty!)

I must say, however, that after reading the aquaforest brochure, coral b sounds very similar to Zoe's coral snow...

 

[watchguy123]

Looking forward to the pictures of the new frags

I don't give out much advice particularly because I have been found in error so many times in my own tank. Nonetheless (probably foot in mouth), I have been following more and more of the "number" guys comments. Seems if phosphates are elevated and nitrates are low that you might consider dosing nitrates versus adding more food. More food seems to have the unintended consequence of raising phosphates even higher in that environment.

The nitrate to phosphate ratio or range of ratios is far from understood or really clear. The absolute numbers of nitrate and phosphate are super low in the ocean but coral get all those cool zooplankton and phytoplankton that don't exist in our reef tanks. So our numbers seemingly need to be higher. You can take organisms, bacteria, algae and corals and differentiate the absolute carbon:nitratehosphate ratio but then again that seems to differ from what's in the ocean water. So apparently, coral in the ocean get nutrients from multiple sources, probably true in our tanks as well.

What is confounding is cyano are so proficient in thriving in low nitrate environments. Not sure if they either have an alternative to nitrogen in metabolism or they are super good at sucking out whatever nitrogen is available in the water and then other bacteria and algae can't compete at those levels. And once they have a foothold, none of the biology makes sense because it seems if you raised nitrates, other less pest-like competitors would come back and outcompete the cyano. But you have seemingly proven that not to be the case.

You are doing something correct, if your coral are looking good while cyano proliferates. Sorry for babbling, but you have a fascinating scenario, happy coral and a cyano outbreak.

 

[cugly]

Merry Christmas and Happy new year buddy.