Learning/rebuilding from my epic fail

I guess what I'm saying is that PATIENCE is just so important in this hobby.. But so hard to practice!

I cannot agree more. It took me just over 3 years to sort out my cyano problem. And finally my tank is free from this menace. I learned a lot during this period, but I got very frustrated at times when various methods, which I experimented, did not work in long term. However, I persevered. :fun2:
 
Glad to hear everything is clearing out .
Your Corals are showing it! :)

Thanks Arlin! It's officially a month since your last update.. We could be ready for a few new pics! :)

I cannot agree more. It took me just over 3 years to sort out my cyano problem. And finally my tank is free from this menace. I learned a lot during this period, but I got very frustrated at times when various methods, which I experimented, did not work in long term. However, I persevered. :fun2:

Experimenting seems counterintuitive as everybody always says stability, stability, stability but I think it's about the proper pace and proper choice of actions.
You don't want to do multiple changes at once and more importantly, you want to give enough time for whatever change you made to either work or not..
I remember that when my tank was doing crap, I was getting desperate and pi**ed off, I just started trying everything at once..
Bulent, would you kindly share you final method of vanguishing the cyano?
I know you have posted it either on your thread or this one, but I'm not sure where..
My cyano is down to small spots here and there but it is coming back ever so slowly..
You're method, I remember was mostly bacterial based.. I'd like to give it a try in the future.. I won't do it any time soon..
The next thing I'm going to try to get my cheato to grow better is redirect my calcium reactor effluent into the cheato. Maybe, hopefully the direct infusion of co2 will give it a boost..
 
Experimenting seems counterintuitive as everybody always says stability, stability, stability but I think it's about the proper pace and proper choice of actions.
You don't want to do multiple changes at once and more importantly, you want to give enough time for whatever change you made to either work or not..
I remember that when my tank was doing crap, I was getting desperate and pi**ed off, I just started trying everything at once..
Bulent, would you kindly share you final method of vanguishing the cyano?
I know you have posted it either on your thread or this one, but I'm not sure where..
My cyano is down to small spots here and there but it is coming back ever so slowly..
You're method, I remember was mostly bacterial based.. I'd like to give it a try in the future.. I won't do it any time soon..
The next thing I'm going to try to get my cheato to grow better is redirect my calcium reactor effluent into the cheato. Maybe, hopefully the direct infusion of co2 will give it a boost..

You are absolutely right about pace of changes. It is for this reason that it took me over 3 years to experiment with only a handful of methods (such as wet skimming, Rowaphos, GAC, KZ coral snow, KZ ZEObak, KZ Cyanoclean, KZ ZEOzym, KZ A-balance). I gave each method (or a combination of methods) enough time to observe its effectiveness.

People have different theories about the causes of cyanobacteria, such as too much phosphates, too little nitrates, too much organics, red field ratio, etc. because every tank is different and there are different strands of cyanobacteria, what works in one set up may not work in another.

My hypothesis was that there was a nutrient imbalance in my tank that enabled cyanobacteria to exploit. Specifically, I hypothesised that nitrates and phosphates were not in balance in my tank. I further hypothesised that raising them in a balanced way will mean that cyanobacteria will not be able to compete against bacteria and algae that will thrive as a result. Until I started to use Tropic Marine NP bacto balance, nitrates and phosphate were not detectable and yet there were heavy cyanobacteria everywhere. Zero readings, of course, do not mean that there are no nutrients. It is in fact the opposite in that there is not enough to encourage other life forms, such as bacteria and macro/micro algae to thrive, so that there would be competition against cyanobacteria.

I devised a long term plan last February. I changed my skimmer to Deltec 1350 from Bubble Magus Nac 6. I installed a kalkwasser stirrer to raise pH as well as removing phosphates by means of chemical precipitation. In addition, I stopped using Rowa Phos to encourage corals to utilise organic phosphates in natural means. Importantly, I started to use a set of Tropic Marin products, NP Bacto balance, Tropic Marin Pro A- elements and Tropic Marin Pro K+ elements. I subscribed to a German forum to get as much information from Hans-Werner Balling as possible about these products. These products are really not designed for tackling cyanobacteria. The idea is to control nutrients in a reef tank. NP bacto balance introduces nitrogen, phosphates and organic carbon in proportion to each other. Nitrates are introduced to feed corals and bacteria, so that phosphates are reduced. Organic carbon is introduced, so that excess nitrates are consumed by them (note that some nitrates are still left in the eater column to avoid starvation of corals). Phosphates are introduced, so that even if bacteria reduce them there will always be some present in the water column to feed the corals, thus avoiding their starvation.

After starting with trace amounts of NP bacto balance, I gradually built up the desired dose by increasing and then decreasing the dosing amount. In addition, I started to use KZ sponge power, which I endorse wholeheartedly, at the maximum dose every day to encourage filter feeders to create a balanced environment. I also used KZ coral snow and ZEObak regularly to boost bacteria (though I stopped this practice shortly after using Siporax). Finally, I added a lot fish in the past few months to increase nitrates further. Where I am at at the moment is that my nitrate readings (Salifert) are constant at 2.5 ppm and phosphate readings (Elos high sensitivity) are constant around 0.015 mg/l (phosphorus) despite feeding my 16 fishes three times a day. Once nitrates and phosphates started to rise, I started to see first signs of micro algae/byropsis (in isolated places). When this happened, I knew that they would spell the end of cyano bacteria because finally I created an environment in which competitors of cyano would survive to outcompete cyano. And they did. The next challenge is now to ensure that these competitors, which are themselves nuisance, will simply keep cyano suppressed without allowing them to thrive, hence introducing additional methods, such as siporax, to keep nitrates in check. I may even use small amounts of GFO passively to fine tune my method at a later date.

Consequently, I believe that I proved my hypothesis correct (though not scientifically) in that once a diversified environment with readable nitrates and phosphates is created, cyanobacteria can be outcompeted. Further experiments are needed to confirm or deny my findings. A fellow reefer in Norway is trying my method (i.e. use of the aforementioned Tropic Marin products) to combat cyanobacteria. I will report back as soon as I hear from him.

I have realised that I have written too long. Sorry. :sad2:
 
Matt,
Beautiful set of coral pics, WOW is all I have to say, the colors are superb! I am stoked to see you get through some algae issues, I am battling something similar, but am on the good side now :) Your tank looks great bro! You may have to change your thread title as I mentioned before, I can applaud your humble approach, but I think you are doing much better than you probably ever thought you would, AWESOME JOB! Cheers!!!!!!!!!!
 
You are absolutely right about pace of changes. It is for this reason that it took me over 3 years to experiment with only a handful of methods (such as wet skimming, Rowaphos, GAC, KZ coral snow, KZ ZEObak, KZ Cyanoclean, KZ ZEOzym, KZ A-balance). I gave each method (or a combination of methods) enough time to observe its effectiveness.

People have different theories about the causes of cyanobacteria, such as too much phosphates, too little nitrates, too much organics, red field ratio, etc. because every tank is different and there are different strands of cyanobacteria, what works in one set up may not work in another.

My hypothesis was that there was a nutrient imbalance in my tank that enabled cyanobacteria to exploit. Specifically, I hypothesised that nitrates and phosphates were not in balance in my tank. I further hypothesised that raising them in a balanced way will mean that cyanobacteria will not be able to compete against bacteria and algae that will thrive as a result. Until I started to use Tropic Marine NP bacto balance, nitrates and phosphate were not detectable and yet there were heavy cyanobacteria everywhere. Zero readings, of course, do not mean that there are no nutrients. It is in fact the opposite in that there is not enough to encourage other life forms, such as bacteria and macro/micro algae to thrive, so that there would be competition against cyanobacteria.

I devised a long term plan last February. I changed my skimmer to Deltec 1350 from Bubble Magus Nac 6. I installed a kalkwasser stirrer to raise pH as well as removing phosphates by means of chemical precipitation. In addition, I stopped using Rowa Phos to encourage corals to utilise organic phosphates in natural means. Importantly, I started to use a set of Tropic Marin products, NP Bacto balance, Tropic Marin Pro A- elements and Tropic Marin Pro K+ elements. I subscribed to a German forum to get as much information from Hans-Werner Balling as possible about these products. These products are really not designed for tackling cyanobacteria. The idea is to control nutrients in a reef tank. NP bacto balance introduces nitrogen, phosphates and organic carbon in proportion to each other. Nitrates are introduced to feed corals and bacteria, so that phosphates are reduced. Organic carbon is introduced, so that excess nitrates are consumed by them (note that some nitrates are still left in the eater column to avoid starvation of corals). Phosphates are introduced, so that even if bacteria reduce them there will always be some present in the water column to feed the corals, thus avoiding their starvation.

After starting with trace amounts of NP bacto balance, I gradually built up the desired dose by increasing and then decreasing the dosing amount. In addition, I started to use KZ sponge power, which I endorse wholeheartedly, at the maximum dose every day to encourage filter feeders to create a balanced environment. I also used KZ coral snow and ZEObak regularly to boost bacteria (though I stopped this practice shortly after using Siporax). Finally, I added a lot fish in the past few months to increase nitrates further. Where I am at at the moment is that my nitrate readings (Salifert) are constant at 2.5 ppm and phosphate readings (Elos high sensitivity) are constant around 0.015 mg/l (phosphorus) despite feeding my 16 fishes three times a day. Once nitrates and phosphates started to rise, I started to see first signs of micro algae/byropsis (in isolated places). When this happened, I knew that they would spell the end of cyano bacteria because finally I created an environment in which competitors of cyano would survive to outcompete cyano. And they did. The next challenge is now to ensure that these competitors, which are themselves nuisance, will simply keep cyano suppressed without allowing them to thrive, hence introducing additional methods, such as siporax, to keep nitrates in check. I may even use small amounts of GFO passively to fine tune my method at a later date.

Consequently, I believe that I proved my hypothesis correct (though not scientifically) in that once a diversified environment with readable nitrates and phosphates is created, cyanobacteria can be outcompeted. Further experiments are needed to confirm or deny my findings. A fellow reefer in Norway is trying my method (i.e. use of the aforementioned Tropic Marin products) to combat cyanobacteria. I will report back as soon as I hear from him.

I have realised that I have written too long. Sorry. :sad2:

Wow!! Bulent, thanks for that very detailed and informative report on your cyano battles!
I have to agree with you on the proper balance of nutrients and bacterial populations.. The trick is achieving and maintaining that balance and I suspect the balance is probably different for different tanks depending on filtration methods and animal populations..
I'm going to keep the bacto balance in my back pocket...
I will first redirect my ca reactor into my cheato and see if I get any boost in growth.
I am also considering dosing Kalk like you do.. The thought of setting up the doser (that I have sitting on a shelf) and the reservoir and then getting the dosage right is putting me off but maybe I'll get around to it..

Since I have a disproportionate amount of p in my system, the Kalk is probably a good first step..
I have always had measurable n and p in my system so I guess I should try to bring them (just p actually) down to a reasonable level before trying the bacto balance..

Thanks again for your post on the subject..
 
Matt,
Beautiful set of coral pics, WOW is all I have to say, the colors are superb! I am stoked to see you get through some algae issues, I am battling something similar, but am on the good side now :) Your tank looks great bro! You may have to change your thread title as I mentioned before, I can applaud your humble approach, but I think you are doing much better than you probably ever thought you would, AWESOME JOB! Cheers!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks, Perry! All these algea issues SUCK! I've never had to deal with so many issues before in a tank..
I've said it before and I'll say it again, this hobby never misses a chance to teach you a lesson.. Sometimes very hard lessons..
I have to say that since starting is tank 3 years ago, I have probably learned more about reef keeping than I did in the 20 odd years previously..
I'm still learning..
My current tank is no where near what my old tank was that I posted on the first page of this thread.. When this tank gets to where that tank was, I'll start a new thread..
I appreciate the kind words!
 
Here's a preview of a group of frags I just picked up from uncle Raja..
I glued them in yesterday.. I'll give them a bit of time and see what happens.. :)

This is an iPhone shot under regular lighting..
They looks much better in the reef..
Raja runs pretty low nutrients and when I get frags from him, they tend to go through a pretty serious transformation (sometimes good and sometimes, not so good) so we'll see how these ones do..

Actually, the one dark frag at the top came out of a different system with higher nutrients.. I expect that one won't change much..
 
Those are some nice pieces you picked up! I was going to say I like the dark one at the top the most, I'm looking forward to new photos of these after a few weeks in your system!
 
Very pretty new comers to your tank MATT. I can teach you how to glue them ....... I do very nice ART work with the glue under the water .....LOL

Cheers
Daniel
 
Those are some nice pieces you picked up! I was going to say I like the dark one at the top the most, I'm looking forward to new photos of these after a few weeks in your system!

Thanks, Josh. I'll definitely be taking some new shots in a week or so.. Can't help it, I have to. :)

Very pretty new comers to your tank MATT. I can teach you how to glue them ....... I do very nice ART work with the glue under the water .....LOL

Cheers
Daniel

Ha! :) your thread has photographic proof or your skills, Dan! Let's call it 'impressionist' era glue art. :)

So I did some tests yesterday.

Calc 430
Alk 8.3
N 2
P .13
Mag 1600
K 225-250!!!

Now, I have both Zeo and Elos k test kits.. They are both difficult to read and I can't be 100% sure of my results but I'm fairly certain my potassium is low..

Since the cyano treatment two weeks ago, I have stopped adding all supplements except fish food and my Roids/Pearls/Vitality mix- a pinch at night (half of what I was adding before)

Parameters have been rock solid over the past two weeks.. The skimmer is still in hyper skim mode from the red slime remover.. Even at its lowest setting, it wet skims very well so I have been adding IO salt to the sump whenever the salinity drops a bit.

I think since stopping kno3 additions (to raise nitrates) and the FM Color Elements, my potassium seems to have slipped.. I added some Zeo Potassium but they recommend 1ml/25 gallons daily- that's 12ml daily for my system.. Seems like a lot.. There must be a better/more concentrated potassium supplement.. Any ideas? I haven't even looked into other potassium additives yet..

So going forward, the only things I'm going to change is the addition of some K and a slight increase in feeding to see how this affects my n and p..

And I'll plan for some more photos next week..
 
Thanks, Josh. I'll definitely be taking some new shots in a week or so.. Can't help it, I have to. :)



Ha! :) your thread has photographic proof or your skills, Dan! Let's call it 'impressionist' era glue art. :)

So I did some tests yesterday.

Calc 430
Alk 8.3
N 2
P .13
Mag 1600
K 225-250!!!

Now, I have both Zeo and Elos k test kits.. They are both difficult to read and I can't be 100% sure of my results but I'm fairly certain my potassium is low..

Since the cyano treatment two weeks ago, I have stopped adding all supplements except fish food and my Roids/Pearls/Vitality mix- a pinch at night (half of what I was adding before)

Parameters have been rock solid over the past two weeks.. The skimmer is still in hyper skim mode from the red slime remover.. Even at its lowest setting, it wet skims very well so I have been adding IO salt to the sump whenever the salinity drops a bit.

I think since stopping kno3 additions (to raise nitrates) and the FM Color Elements, my potassium seems to have slipped.. I added some Zeo Potassium but they recommend 1ml/25 gallons daily- that's 12ml daily for my system.. Seems like a lot.. There must be a better/more concentrated potassium supplement.. Any ideas? I haven't even looked into other potassium additives yet..

So going forward, the only things I'm going to change is the addition of some K and a slight increase in feeding to see how this affects my n and p..

And I'll plan for some more photos next week..
Wow! That is very low:(. To bring it up just use the Brightwell "Potassion", the Zeo stuff is too dilute and too expensive. There are other similar products that will work as well if you can't get Brightwell.
 
-
jlaquatics.com sells K-Balance strong and their prices and shipping are quite reasonable. I
think in has a quite a bit more potassium than the standard K-Balance. I used
the Brightwell product and found it to be next to useless. Maybe I just got a bad bottle.
-
 
Matt, how do you determine that your phosphate is 0.13? You use the Elos test kit and it jumps from 0.092 or 0.14? Do you use other test kits to meet in the middle?
 
Wow! That is very low:(. To bring it up just use the Brightwell "Potassion", the Zeo stuff is too dilute and too expensive. There are other similar products that will work as well if you can't get Brightwell.

I actually have a couple containers of brightwell potassion K because I used to used it to dip my corals, but now I use Bayer. I forgot about that!
It's in powdered form, though and since it's so hard to get an accurate k test result, not sure I want to use it.. But I guess whether it's powder or liquid, I'll still have to find the right dosage.

-
jlaquatics.com sells K-Balance strong and their prices and shipping are quite reasonable. I
think in has a quite a bit more potassium than the standard K-Balance. I used
the Brightwell product and found it to be next to useless. Maybe I just got a bad bottle.
-

So you used the liquid form, I guess.. I'm quite sure the powdered form works.. It certainly destroyed flatworms and anything else the corals had in them..
Thanks for the info, though, I'll check out the k balance strong..

Matt, how do you determine that your phosphate is 0.13? You use the Elos test kit and it jumps from 0.092 or 0.14? Do you use other test kits to meet in the middle?

The reading comes out ever so slightly below the .14 colour. Closer to that colour than the .092 colour- so, I'm going with .13- I'd say it's between .11-.13.
I get my daughters to look while standing near a window (instead of artificial light) I assume that young female eyes are probably better than my old fart eyes at distinguishing subtle colours.
 
Awesome! Getting the kids to do the work for you. You're halfway to having a maintenance free tank!

Women's eyes are naturally better than men's at distinguishing colours also.
 
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