LED's with respect to color of Sps corals

I set up a ATI Sunpower 6x39w yesterday next to my DIY led fixture (I have 2 similar, but took one down for this experiment to run them against each other).

My fixture is setup like this:

LED.jpg

My ATI T5 runs:
3x ATI Aquablue Special
2x ATI Blue +
1x KZ Fiji pink

I'm considering setting up more cyan and blue on the LED fixture. The T5 produces significant amounts of heat. The LED gives off crisper color in the water, easily the same amount of intensity at the bottom (60cm) even when the CW's are at 60% of 750mA and they are placed about 40cm above the tank, while the ATI is 10-15cm above. The LEDs are controlled with a Profilux in 5 strings (CWx2, RBx2, Colorx1)

Will be very interesting to see if there is any claims to the LEDs are inferior in regards to coloration and growth. I've had decent growth, but I have never run hallides, so I'm not experienced in what the naysayers call "real" growth. All the other parameters in the tank will be equal for both sides. I've spent a fortune on the LED fixture, but if it proves to be all that much better with ATI (And I can't imagine how nice it will look then) I'm not afraid of scrapping them, rebuilding, or just switch to ATI on the other side also.
 
I started with AI Sols on my new 120g from day one of the setup about 11 months ago. I have decent growth and color in my SPS, but I would have to say that I definitely got better growth and color on my old 150g tank with 250w Radium halides. I have tried different color and intensity configurations on the LEDs, but I don't think I'll ever get what I had with the Radiums. I am ok with that, as I wanted a cooler tank (temp wise), and less evaporation. I don't have to run fans, and hardly ever have to refill my big ATO container. There are pluses and minuses to both, and I pretty happy with my LEDs. Although I am sure I will upgrade my Sols to the new Vegas when they come out, since AI told me that you will be able to upgrade without buying all new fixtures. That may give me some better color combinations.
 
I completely agree with the sentiments of the group. LEDs are good, but not great. I switched from halides to LEDs a few months ago and agree that there is something missing from LEDs, aside from the missing spectral bumps.

I think it has to do with LED technology itself. In simple terms, LED light doesn't travel far compared to halide or incandescent light. Ever compare a traditional flashlight with an LED one? LEDs appear brighter up close, but when both are shot at a wall a few feet away, the incandescent light appears as a brighter spot on the wall. I see the same effect on my tank. My LEDs only shine down on the tank, but don't have much reflective light bouncing off the sand bed and back up on the bottom of the coral. The reason I think this is because the bottom of my coral appear to have less color than the top. The overall effect is that the coral don't seem as brightly colored.
 
"What I don't understand is why the Fiji purple is so popular when most of the spectrum is wasted (huge spike in the red range). I think there is a disconnect between what the corals need to show their best colors and what our eyes need to see them." -My2girls

I understand and agree with your statement^ The first priority is to allow the corals to grow colorfully by providing high kelvin light, 12k and above generally. If it's not high kelvin light primarily, then the coral will have more symbiotic algae growing in it's tissue and appear browner. Then it's about being able to see the colors that the coral has turned into. For instance in actinic shots, only a few corals really stand out. The colors are there, just not in viewable form. (same if it was just red, or green, or...light)

This is why Radions look better imo than straight blue and white crees. It would be nice if Cree made an emitter in the 12-14k range. I think this is the missing link in the Cree based fixtures(Tmc claims to have them but they aren't well known in the states and don't make very high wattage fixtures). There are manufacturers that make leds in that range but they aren't as powerful and effecient as the Crees...or as trusted. AI and Radion use Cree leds in the 6500k-7500k spectrum and it would be better if they were able to source higher kelvin diodes that are just as powerful.


Theres a store and a hobbyist or two that's running side by side comparisons between halides and Radions, and they're happy with their colors and growth on both sides. It just that the greeen and red aren't of much use for the coral but allow us to view the greens and reds better. Lower kelvin cool whites aren't the ideal spectrum for corals but are good enough if you have enough wattage and blue leds to compensate for the fact they aren't in the 10-15k range. Similar to mixing paint colors to get the right color. It would be nice to have the right color to begin with. T5's are great for color because they have 12-14k options to mix with blues (and the light is hitting the coral from many directions). I know a few T5 users have a 6500k bulb in their combos but imo it's more for viewing the reds yellows and greens etc. than providing zooaxanthellae photosynthetic light. The coral would be better off having a 10k 12k or 14k bulb(s) in place of the 6500k bulb. It's pretty established that coral grows fastest with 10k light but grows more colorful under 20k light with 14k being the middle ground. The lack of powerful 3 watt diodes in the 10-15k range is what I believe is holding led fixtures back.

I don't know enough about the UV spectrum leds in regards to color to have a solid opinion.
 
Interesting information. The deeper I dive into the subject of lighting the more I realize just how little I know. Subscribed.

I don't have much experience with all of the different types of lighting that is available to the aquarist, but I would think one point in favor of LED lighting is having the ability to change the intensity of the lights throughout the day to loosely mimic the pattern of sun.
 
That looks interesting Vannpytt. What brand of LED lamps are you using?

==================

Great input everyone...........here's some info that I think piggybacks some of what Todd100 has mentioned above.

Here' s plot of the cree xp-g cool white which is in the Radion & Sol blue

cree xpg cool white by Big E 52, on Flickr

They put out as much in that 500-600 as in the 450 range. Not only is the 500-600 range that high not needed by the coral, but it's wasted energy. The corals need under 20% of that output in that range.............approx what the sun puts out. So if you don't turn that down some corals will bleach.

The problem is when you turn that down you lose par & you're also reducing that blue spike. That in turn gives you a smaller spread or area over your tank that will support growth & color for acros. So even though a company will say a unit will cover a 24 x24 area at 100% you can't run them at 100%.

There's also the option of raising the LED unit higher but then you get a lot of ugly spillage outside your tank & you are still in essense reducing par.

Even if you are able to over time get the corals to adjust & run the unit at 100% at the height they measured their coverage test, the overall plot still isn't what the Radium can do for you so you are dealing with some bland /flat, slightly bleached colors on acroporas. Not all colors with show it, greens will still pop & most blues. If you look at most LED tanks the green corals will stick out the most. You definately aren't going to get Radium bulb colors.

Here's the cree xp-e cool white that's common in other LED units......It's the blue line on the graph.............not as bad for sure, but still a problem.

cree XPE cool white by Big E 52, on Flickr


Now look at the Cree Xte cool white..........this is what some of the newer units have coming out that use Crees....for example the Masxpect Razor. You can see how much better this will work from a starting point. It has cut that hump down a good 30%. You should have a better chance of running this unit at 100% & get coverage at what the manufacturer shows on their coverage graph & a better chance of matching the colors of a Radium bulb.


cree XTE cool white by Big E 52, on Flickr


A lot of the newer units also have a LED lamp to cover the 400-420 range that most of the previous LED commercial units lack. It all adds up to being easier to match the Radium plot when the LED unit is running at 100%

Maxspect razor plot at 100%

maxspectrazor16k.gif
[/IMG]

What I'm pointing out isn't an indictment to some units that we can buy now or promoting certain new units. It's just about sharing info & trying to explain some of what LEDs do over Sps. If you're happy with what you have that's fine......... if you expect more out of these units, you're in wait mode like me, & even at that ,the newer units have to prove themselves over tanks.
 
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tradewinds said---

I don't have much experience with all of the different types of lighting that is available to the aquarist, but I would think one point in favor of LED lighting is having the ability to change the intensity of the lights throughout the day to loosely mimic the pattern of sun.
Click to expand...

It is a nice feature for looks but the corals don't care. Most of the corals we have are collected in shallow water less than 20ft. & near the equator when the sun comes up they are at full photosynthesis almost immediately.

Corals can handle nearwards of 1000par if the full spectrum is correct. Were lucky to get 500-600 over our tanks near the top.

I think where that option will really help is for the fish. There's a good chance you'll see evening spawning behavior, how fish react & hunt in the early morning, ect. It's less of a shock for them to get that punch of light at once in the morning, especially for tanks that don't have a lot of ambient light, like in a dark basement.
 
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When dimming down the CW you get far less PAR, and overdoing RB is not a good option either. Instead of changing out alot of the CW I would much rather add a few more Cyan and Blue to the CW string as they can be run at the same A and give off less yellow/red yet still look 15-20k in the mix with even half the amount of CW that I run now.

I'm considering removing 12 CW (24 CW in total on each fixture) and replacing with said LEDs. Should give even better spectrum and better PAR.
 
That grim guy-Your tank looks very nice. I think the DIY leds you added help out the overall color of your tank.

Vannypytt-Sounds good, It would be nice to see that combo work out for you. I beleive your on the right track, and when higher kelvin whites come out you can pop those in later.

Thanks for posting the graphs Big E. I've folllowed Kessil, and like that they're specifically targeting the right colors for nice coral color and growth. There are a lot more happy A150 and A350 owners than unhappy ones. I hope to see Kessil or another manufacturer follow up and make a high kelvin multichip led that is more spread out in a rectangular format similar to what T5 accomplishes. Their options at the moment would work for me. It wouldn't be perfect for my tank, however I'm still impressed.
 
A couple of things...

My LED fixture is from Acan Lighting which is in my signature. The reason I mention this is two fold. Acan use thes standard 450nm royal blue and a 12K cool white which has much less of that red "hump". The corals seem to be able to withstand more intensity from this type of white chip. The downside is the tank can have that flat appearance. I have recently add 13 violet LEDs to add some 410-420nm spectrum. Time will tell if this helps with a couple of stubborn acros.

Coverage and spread are have always been awesome. Acan uses rows of LEDs similar to T5 fixtures.
 
Which 12000kelvin LEDs are you running, what's their CRI and where can I see the graph? What A can they run and how many W ?
 
Big E said:
Maxspect razor plot at 100%

maxspectrazor16k.gif
[/IMG]
Click to expand...

Big E:

Judging by the graph (and assuming its accurate) if this puts out enough par, it should perform just as well as MH radium. Do you agree, or are there other factors beside spectrum and PAR?
 
Vannpyt--- I agree, sounds like a good plan. You may want to install some of the nuetral whites as replacements for some of the cool whites.....(red line on graph)..........Even though they have that big hump in the 550-650 range that isn't great, They also peak much lower in that blue range than the cool whites.............again, the XTE looks the best of the Cree nuetrals.

It will also help eliminate some of the cold or icy look that some people complain about.

creeXTEcoolwhite.gif
[/IMG]

On the 12K LED lamp-----------

I think that's nothing more than the manufacturers marketing designation. They can call an LED anything they want when it comes to K.

We've seen this over the years many times with the labeling of Halide Bulbs.......what they call them means little.

Why is Acan calling their white LED ---12k yet they call their Blue 460nm?

They should give you a designation of what brand of LEDs they are using. They likely are using the industry standard cool whites like everyone else & just calling them 12k.

It says here they are using something similar to the cree XPG---
http://acanlighting.com/index.php?option=com_content&id=81

I don't know anything about Acan so it may just be my ignorance..........but I can't find anything on their site.

my2 girls,

Can you offer more insight on Acan in respect to this?

Adding those violets sounds like a good plan btw.
 
acesq said:
Big E:

Judging by the graph (and assuming its accurate) if this puts out enough par, it should perform just as well as MH radium. Do you agree, or are there other factors beside spectrum and PAR?
Click to expand...

Yes, that's why I posted that..........just keep in mind those graphs they post are crude, but at least it gives you an idea. Until someone like Sanjay does the actual measurements you aren't going to get exact numbers on those spectral graphs. Scan other brands sites & look for that Radium plot when the LEDs are at 100%.

Besides par & spectrum, you have to look at spread. The manufacturers will show their spread capabilities at 100%. I look at about 200 par as the cutoff for SPS. Anything below that is questionable on getting good growth & color.

razorcoveragechart.gif
[/IMG]

Be aware too that most of these graphs at say 12" or 24" are measured without water.

------------------

You also have to consider price...................bang for the buck, as far as what each unit offers.

Also think about longevity...........Is the product going to give you 7-8 years of quality production. My 400w Halide ballasts & lumenarc reflectors gave me 8+ years for example.

You don't want to buy something that you'll have to upgrade or replace in 2 years. If the unit is a quality full spectrum unit, that will go a long way in anwsering that question. Right now no one can vouch for years of service when it comes to durability because most LEDs units are too new.

One last thing.........if the company isn't giving you technical specs & what's under the hood with respect to the brand of LED lamps they use, I'd be wary. I don't buy that stuff about proprietary special LED lamps.........reads too much like they are hiding something.
 
Hey guys. I couldn't find a spectral plot for the Acan cool whites. I agree, it's could be a marketing thing. I also mistakenly said the royal blues were 450 when they appear to be 460nm. Their website doesn't even say what brand they are, just that they are similar to Cree XPE chips.

I've had this fixture for 18 months or so. Back then, nobody knew to ask for spectral plots of LEDs, at least not me. While most corals look great, there are a couple that could use some improvement. One is a purple bonsai, and one is a tri color acro. Both are lacking some purple except for the tips. I added near UV LEDs a week ago and those troubled acros are starting to turn from brown to purple. I've also been beta testing a new amino so I don't know if it's the UVs or the food but whatever. Time will tell.
 
Big E said:
Vannpyt--- I agree, sounds like a good plan. You may want to install some of the nuetral whites as replacements for some of the cool whites.....(red line on graph)..........Even though they have that big hump in the 550-650 range that isn't great, They also peak much lower in that blue range than the cool whites.............again, the XTE looks the best of the Cree nuetrals.
Click to expand...

As far as I'm aware, and also from the Cree website, the CRI of the WW NW abd CW LEDs are decent, worse, worst, hence, the graph of either is basically the same given a certain intensity.

My problem with LEDs, is basically that any and every single 3-5-8-10-15k kelvin design has WAY to much yellow, hence the CRI is garbage. I would propose that it's actually the other way around from what most people say. The blue LEDs (RB/B/Cyan/Violet) are the ones creating punch in terms of PAR and the White's are for what we think of in terms of intensity, while it's actually counter productive to have alot of it. This is what I'm seeing after a short week of comparing visual color and coral color and dimming down the white LEDs substantially and running more hours. The coloration and growth in the LED section is not inferior by far. The visual crispness of water along with shimmering and all the other goodies LED brings to the table is hard to ignore, but it's still way early. Good colors might increase alot in the comming 2-3 weeks on the T5 side.

I still want more cyan and regular blue LEDs on the white string, and maybe even change out my Red/Orange led for a Deep Red 660nm.
 
One of the sides is LED only (60*3w LEDs) vs 6x39w ATI Sunpower

Akvarium047.jpg


I'm no camera expert, but I got a Canon D60 with a 50mm F/1.4
 
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