let the insanity begin
- Thread starter rick rottet
- Start date
rick rottet
reefkeeper// propagator
melev, the underground loop would not have tank water flowing through it. (Remember, all of my tanks will be separate). It would circulate separate water (or a water antifreeze mix) underground. The underground loop would come up inside the greenhouse and be connected to a pvc manifold (manifold is just a pvc pipe running down the length of the greenhouse). The manifold would have a tee at each tank with a coil of smaller tubing inside each tank, then from the smaller tubing back to a return pipe/manifold and then back underground.
No chance for the loop to drain the tanks.
Tank water would be too risky to circulate. There are all kinds of sponges and other organisms that could potentially grow in the loop and cause problems. Also, if tank water was going through the loop, the loop could become a denitrification coil... with all of the associated problems.
No chance for the loop to drain the tanks.
Tank water would be too risky to circulate. There are all kinds of sponges and other organisms that could potentially grow in the loop and cause problems. Also, if tank water was going through the loop, the loop could become a denitrification coil... with all of the associated problems.
rick rottet
reefkeeper// propagator
cseeton- can it be calculated more precisely how much underground I would need for a circulation only (no heat pump) system, or are there too many variables.
I'm not worried about breaking even with the ground loop, it would just be a necessary operating expense that would need to be budgeted for, kind of like the furnace in winter.
If I used the underground loop with a heat pump, the initial outlay of cash would be so great, then I would be more interested in the savings part of it and how long it would take to pay for itself. The water furnace guy says he can lower my propane bills to $250 for every $1,000 I am currently spending. Saving that much, it might only take about four winters to pay for itself.
Another question... if the underground loop was to be used with a heat pump, would it be better to run the heat exchange in the tanks, OR just use it to climate control the greenhouse and thereby regulate the tanks.
I'm not worried about breaking even with the ground loop, it would just be a necessary operating expense that would need to be budgeted for, kind of like the furnace in winter.
If I used the underground loop with a heat pump, the initial outlay of cash would be so great, then I would be more interested in the savings part of it and how long it would take to pay for itself. The water furnace guy says he can lower my propane bills to $250 for every $1,000 I am currently spending. Saving that much, it might only take about four winters to pay for itself.
Another question... if the underground loop was to be used with a heat pump, would it be better to run the heat exchange in the tanks, OR just use it to climate control the greenhouse and thereby regulate the tanks.
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rick rottet
reefkeeper// propagator
Treeman- using a smaller unit(s) made sense to me as well. That was one reason I revisited those DIY chillers that were 1/2 HP. I would eventually have to set up 20 or 21 of them, but I could do it as I went along and it would only be another $150 (or so) for each tank. Operating expense might be higher with 21 smaller units compared to a 5 ton.
All of this is making my head hurt......but it's a good hurt- if you know what I mean.
All of this is making my head hurt......but it's a good hurt- if you know what I mean.
Rick,
I will look at the numbers this weekend. It will be a good refresher, and may help strengthen my claims to my wife for our own GSHP at the next house.
I do not think that running 20 1/2 hp units (1/2 ton, if 12 SEER is assumed) is a good idea. I do think that Treeman's point is good about adding a smaller unit now and possibly adding more as conditions necessitate. I would probably go with a 3 ton system... that is, a 3 ton residential condensing unit - like you probably have on your house and a titanium coil HX for the evaporator. I can put it together for you or if you wait until next summer, you can get a licensed HVAC tech to connect the pieces. While the prebuilt systems are nice, I think building up a unit will save money ââ"šÂ¬Ã¢â‚¬Å“ especially if you can bribe/barter for the techââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s time.
I will look at the numbers this weekend. It will be a good refresher, and may help strengthen my claims to my wife for our own GSHP at the next house.
I do not think that running 20 1/2 hp units (1/2 ton, if 12 SEER is assumed) is a good idea. I do think that Treeman's point is good about adding a smaller unit now and possibly adding more as conditions necessitate. I would probably go with a 3 ton system... that is, a 3 ton residential condensing unit - like you probably have on your house and a titanium coil HX for the evaporator. I can put it together for you or if you wait until next summer, you can get a licensed HVAC tech to connect the pieces. While the prebuilt systems are nice, I think building up a unit will save money ââ"šÂ¬Ã¢â‚¬Å“ especially if you can bribe/barter for the techââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s time.
David MC Lee
Well-known member
Rick: You may also want to think about what type of pump it would take to pump 1500G of water through a 4500 foot long 1 inch pipe. I bet you end up with a lot of resistance in a run that long.
rick rottet
reefkeeper// propagator
cseeton- I sure appreciate you taking your time to work up some concrete data for me. I have sweated a (very) few line sets, but would definitely need someone with a vacuum pump and certified (or at least trustworthy) for the refrigerant. I would probably need some info on how/where to put everything also. I agree (and stated above), the operating expense of 20 or 21 smaller chilers might be more expensive than one large one, thanks for the confirmation.
melev-agreed.
David- the guy who gave me the info about running the five well holes for a 5 ton unit also told me they use 2 pumps on their systems, one to push and one to pull. They only have 1500 feet of pipe though, not 4500. I guess if it came down to it, I could run 2 shorter loops of 2250 feet each, or use a nice 10,000 rpm well pump or two.
OK guys, maybe this is a flash of brilliance, and maybe it's just me talking out my arse. Remember waaaay back when I was talking about using desiccants in front of the shutters to dehumidify the incoming air so the evaporative potential from the wet pads would be greater inside the greenhouse??? cseeton convinced me it wouldn't work because dehumidifying the air makes the air gain heat. He said when we remove moisture from the air (without an AC) we add heat to it.
Well, what if I put a decently sized window AC in front of the shutters (outside of the greenhouse) to blow cooler/dryer air across the wet pads. This would not be an attempt to air condition the greenhouse. But what if I put the window unit there just to dehumidify the incoming air??? Seems like that would increase the evap potential from the tanks inside the greenhouse (or increase the evap potential of the wet pads). Plus the cooler air coming in through the shutters couldn't hurt anything either.
I don't have to get a whole lot from it, With just evap alone it will be close except for the days it gets above 94 degrees with more than 70 % humidity. If the AC in front of the shutters could drop the humidity even to 60 %, the temp could go up to 98.
Think that would accomplish anything, or not???
melev-agreed.
David- the guy who gave me the info about running the five well holes for a 5 ton unit also told me they use 2 pumps on their systems, one to push and one to pull. They only have 1500 feet of pipe though, not 4500. I guess if it came down to it, I could run 2 shorter loops of 2250 feet each, or use a nice 10,000 rpm well pump or two.
OK guys, maybe this is a flash of brilliance, and maybe it's just me talking out my arse. Remember waaaay back when I was talking about using desiccants in front of the shutters to dehumidify the incoming air so the evaporative potential from the wet pads would be greater inside the greenhouse??? cseeton convinced me it wouldn't work because dehumidifying the air makes the air gain heat. He said when we remove moisture from the air (without an AC) we add heat to it.
Well, what if I put a decently sized window AC in front of the shutters (outside of the greenhouse) to blow cooler/dryer air across the wet pads. This would not be an attempt to air condition the greenhouse. But what if I put the window unit there just to dehumidify the incoming air??? Seems like that would increase the evap potential from the tanks inside the greenhouse (or increase the evap potential of the wet pads). Plus the cooler air coming in through the shutters couldn't hurt anything either.
I don't have to get a whole lot from it, With just evap alone it will be close except for the days it gets above 94 degrees with more than 70 % humidity. If the AC in front of the shutters could drop the humidity even to 60 %, the temp could go up to 98.
Think that would accomplish anything, or not???
rick rottet
reefkeeper// propagator
While you guys with all of the tech knowledge are thinking about that last post, here are a few pics of the first tank running.
I think allot of people underestimate the amount of water an airlift can circulate. This is through 2" pvc. I really should make a video of this so the amount of water flowing though can be seen in real time. A static picture just doesn't do it justice.
The little overflow box seems to be working also. I do have to keep an eye on the water level. With all of the fans running inside the greenhouse, the evaporation rate is pretty high. I had thought of hanging one of those blue barrels from the same support bars that the furnace is hanging from. Then water could drip into each tank continuously. The way I have it figured, one 55 gallon barrel will keep up with ten tanks for three days. If two barrels are hung up, that should keep up with all 20 tanks for three days. Put some kalkwasser in each barrel and supplement the calcium and pH too. I can always manually dose extra kalkwasser for the tanks that need more calcium.
I think allot of people underestimate the amount of water an airlift can circulate. This is through 2" pvc. I really should make a video of this so the amount of water flowing though can be seen in real time. A static picture just doesn't do it justice.
The little overflow box seems to be working also. I do have to keep an eye on the water level. With all of the fans running inside the greenhouse, the evaporation rate is pretty high. I had thought of hanging one of those blue barrels from the same support bars that the furnace is hanging from. Then water could drip into each tank continuously. The way I have it figured, one 55 gallon barrel will keep up with ten tanks for three days. If two barrels are hung up, that should keep up with all 20 tanks for three days. Put some kalkwasser in each barrel and supplement the calcium and pH too. I can always manually dose extra kalkwasser for the tanks that need more calcium.
melev
Well-known member
How much weight can your framework carry? 2x55x8=880lbs, plus the weight of the barrels. 900lbs probably... What about a simple top off system instead? Or a stand to put the barrels on that is higher than the tanks, as long as it doesn't block the sunlight to the tank, that is.
I've seen some airlifts before, but your static picture didn't even seem to have microbubbles. Is that just an illusion?
I've seen some airlifts before, but your static picture didn't even seem to have microbubbles. Is that just an illusion?
rick rottet
reefkeeper// propagator
I talked with the techs at Atlas, they said as long as the weight of the barrels was spread across three bows, it would carry the weight. The 2" x 2" square bars that the furnace hangs from spans three bars. I really would rather put the barrels on a stand for ease of access, I just need to figure out where to put them so they won't be in the way of something else....will be really crowded in there....eventually. Floor space is a premium.
No micro bubbles. I am running open airlines, no diffusers, so the bubbles that rise up in the tubes are large(ish) and just pop when they meet the surface. They really don't even get to the surface of the tank water, more like they are just expelled from the lift tubes.
No micro bubbles. I am running open airlines, no diffusers, so the bubbles that rise up in the tubes are large(ish) and just pop when they meet the surface. They really don't even get to the surface of the tank water, more like they are just expelled from the lift tubes.
maxxII
Super Housemonkey!
Dumb question:
How are you going to fill the barrels? How are you going to get Kalk up to them for dosing? Do you plan on being able to raise/lower the barrels? Or are the barrels just for top off, and Kalk will be dosed from another point?
I would double check w/ Atlas (greenhouse manufacturer) just to be on the safe side, and I would write down everyone's name who advised you this was safe and wouldnt damage the greenhouse etc. I would probably try to get this in writing or email, just as a CYA kinda dealie.
I would hate to see you work this hard, overcome all these obstacles, only to have a support truss on the greenhouse fail, allowing the suspended barrel(s) to fall, shattering tanks, killing livestock and damaging your greenhouse.
No, I'm not a raging pessimist. I am a cop who has seen Murphy's law in effect in SO MANY different and horrible ways its not even funny. I now regularly plan for disasters to happen in this hobby and attempt to plan failsafes to prevent or compensate for any kind of disaster I can think of.
Sorry for the long gloom and doom type diatribe, just trying to think worst case scenario to avoid issues.
Besides, I want to have coral farm w/in driving distance from my house.
Nick
casethekid
New member
wow...
wow...
after about 4 hours of reading...you are the man:rollface: And when you get it all running, I will be driving the 8-12 hours to buy all my coral from you. It's truly a credit to your character and dedication to your dream that you are still plugging away after the downs and ups you have encountered. Keep up the amazing work.
wow...
after about 4 hours of reading...you are the man:rollface: And when you get it all running, I will be driving the 8-12 hours to buy all my coral from you. It's truly a credit to your character and dedication to your dream that you are still plugging away after the downs and ups you have encountered. Keep up the amazing work.
LegoZ81
New member
If you finance the system into your mortgage you will benifit from positive cash flow from the system from day 1. this is assuming reasonable energy prices from last year.cseeton said:
**Also many electric comapnies give discounted rates for the electricity used to heat/cool the home if you have a GSHP system. Cornbelt will install a seperate meter to monitor energy usage. This can save you even more money.
You may want to take a look at the bigger picture also. During heating season a NG furnace produces as much CO2 as 2 cars do.
During cooling season a standard AC unit consumes ALOT of electricity and puts strain on the grid, it also forces more electricity to be produced to handle the demand. Alot of this electricity (60% here in B-N) is from coal fired electrical plants, so your reduction in electricity consumptions will help lower CO2, Sulfer and other harmful pollutants.
Here is a price chart for the last year for Natural Gas:
http://www.illinoisgasprices.com/natgas_chart.aspx
The price difference from this time last year to the present is +$3.85 per million BTU
If you apply that to the peak price from last year (11/1/04) you are looking at natural gas prices to hit over $11.85/mBTU to hit this heating season. Thats ~40% more than last years peak price. I assume that propane will follow this trend.
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rick rottet
reefkeeper// propagator
maxxII- All of this is assuming I would hang the barrels, which I have only given thought to, not made a final decision. Like I said, my preference would be to set the barrels on a stand, just have to figure where to put them. As a side thought, "I was thinking they could be hung" and had called Atlas to see if the bows could support that much weight.
I could build stands that would let the top off barrels sit above the current barrels (up high enough to allow access to the bottom barrels).
I currently have nine barrels which get filled with RODI then aerate and buffer. Most of those barrels get mixed with salt but one stays fresh water only for topoffs. There is a pump that I move from barrel to barrel when I do water changes/top-offs on the vat or fill a tank. That pump can easily go to a 10' 6" head and then some (10' 6" being the top of the greenhouse). If hanging from the bows, I would build a wooden support platform for the barrels to sit on and hang the platform from the bows so the barrels could be removable for cleaning.
The kalk could be done a couple of ways;
1) have one of the current barrels on the ground dedicated to mixing/settling the kalk, then pump the clear limewater up to the barrel (whether it be hanging or on a stand)
2) continue with the current method of topoff and just add kalk to the freshwater barrel.
3) stand on a ladder to mix the kalk in the hanging barrels and let it settle there. The plumbing could be set up through a bulkhead so that the outflow comes from a few inches off of the bottom. (or stand on the vat to put the kalk in- I stand on it sometimes when I need to look down into a skimmer, and when I ran the airlines that are bubbling in the vat)
4) have a separate container (smaller-lower-easier to reach)) with the kalk and let the RODI drip from the barrel through that then to the tanks, but there are problems when trying to put too much kalk in too small of a container.
5) forget all of this and just manually dose the kalk. I'm sure I will have to do some this anyway if/when I get into some of the faster growing stonies or clams.
Remember too, kalk does not have to be mixed "saturated" so that it leaves allot of precipitate, less can be used so there is almost no precipitate. It can also be done in a slurry where a smaller amount is mixed and then just poured right in without letting it settle.
Currently on my private tank, I put 1/2 tsp kalk in an old milk jug and dump in 1 gallon of RODI then pour it into an old IV bag that hangs by the tank. (it is actually an old irrigation bag with 2,000 ml capacity) I use the roller clamp from IV tubing to regulate the drip rate. I don't let it settle and get nearly 0 precipitate in the bag. I used to get quite a bit of precipitate when I was using the RO water from the unit under the kitchen sink, but with RODI from the greenhouse, hardly any precipitate. I also have an unlit tank with Tubastraea and sponges that I just pour the other half of the gallon into.
Any drip system used that is exposed to the air is bound to build up some "crusties" due to the fact that there is carbon dioxide in our atmosphere. (combines with calcium to make calcium carbonate) This can usually be cleaned with a dilute acid such as vinegar or diluted muriatic acid.
Randy Holmes-Farley from the chemistry forum talks about his kalk dripper. It is a 44 gallon Rubbermaid can. He puts in the kalk, dumps water in from a five gallon bucket to mix the kalk, and then connects it to his topoff system. Says he only cleans the can about once a year or so.
melev- good idea. Kind of like the separate container idea I was talking about above.
casethekid- thanks for your kind words and encouragement.
I could build stands that would let the top off barrels sit above the current barrels (up high enough to allow access to the bottom barrels).
I currently have nine barrels which get filled with RODI then aerate and buffer. Most of those barrels get mixed with salt but one stays fresh water only for topoffs. There is a pump that I move from barrel to barrel when I do water changes/top-offs on the vat or fill a tank. That pump can easily go to a 10' 6" head and then some (10' 6" being the top of the greenhouse). If hanging from the bows, I would build a wooden support platform for the barrels to sit on and hang the platform from the bows so the barrels could be removable for cleaning.
The kalk could be done a couple of ways;
1) have one of the current barrels on the ground dedicated to mixing/settling the kalk, then pump the clear limewater up to the barrel (whether it be hanging or on a stand)
2) continue with the current method of topoff and just add kalk to the freshwater barrel.
3) stand on a ladder to mix the kalk in the hanging barrels and let it settle there. The plumbing could be set up through a bulkhead so that the outflow comes from a few inches off of the bottom. (or stand on the vat to put the kalk in- I stand on it sometimes when I need to look down into a skimmer, and when I ran the airlines that are bubbling in the vat)
4) have a separate container (smaller-lower-easier to reach)) with the kalk and let the RODI drip from the barrel through that then to the tanks, but there are problems when trying to put too much kalk in too small of a container.
5) forget all of this and just manually dose the kalk. I'm sure I will have to do some this anyway if/when I get into some of the faster growing stonies or clams.
Remember too, kalk does not have to be mixed "saturated" so that it leaves allot of precipitate, less can be used so there is almost no precipitate. It can also be done in a slurry where a smaller amount is mixed and then just poured right in without letting it settle.
Currently on my private tank, I put 1/2 tsp kalk in an old milk jug and dump in 1 gallon of RODI then pour it into an old IV bag that hangs by the tank. (it is actually an old irrigation bag with 2,000 ml capacity) I use the roller clamp from IV tubing to regulate the drip rate. I don't let it settle and get nearly 0 precipitate in the bag. I used to get quite a bit of precipitate when I was using the RO water from the unit under the kitchen sink, but with RODI from the greenhouse, hardly any precipitate. I also have an unlit tank with Tubastraea and sponges that I just pour the other half of the gallon into.
Any drip system used that is exposed to the air is bound to build up some "crusties" due to the fact that there is carbon dioxide in our atmosphere. (combines with calcium to make calcium carbonate) This can usually be cleaned with a dilute acid such as vinegar or diluted muriatic acid.
Randy Holmes-Farley from the chemistry forum talks about his kalk dripper. It is a 44 gallon Rubbermaid can. He puts in the kalk, dumps water in from a five gallon bucket to mix the kalk, and then connects it to his topoff system. Says he only cleans the can about once a year or so.
melev- good idea. Kind of like the separate container idea I was talking about above.
casethekid- thanks for your kind words and encouragement.
growyourown
Premium Member
Rick,
Time for me to give my unsolicited .02!!
I just installed a 5 ton chiller on the plastic injection molding machines at work. I have a quad fan unit outside the building, and a large condensing /pump unit inside, the entire system is a closed loop, we bought it at auction in ElkGrove village, the company went bankrupt, and we got it for $1000.00.
It is capable and is keeping my molds at a constant 50 degrees and that is with 500 degree plastic flowing through the molds all day long.
The estimated cost of running this unit is $180 per month during the summer, aand $120 during the winter as the ambient temp in the factory falls to about 55 degrees.
Just an FYI, these things are readily available at machinery auctions online.
Glenn
Time for me to give my unsolicited .02!!
I just installed a 5 ton chiller on the plastic injection molding machines at work. I have a quad fan unit outside the building, and a large condensing /pump unit inside, the entire system is a closed loop, we bought it at auction in ElkGrove village, the company went bankrupt, and we got it for $1000.00.
It is capable and is keeping my molds at a constant 50 degrees and that is with 500 degree plastic flowing through the molds all day long.
The estimated cost of running this unit is $180 per month during the summer, aand $120 during the winter as the ambient temp in the factory falls to about 55 degrees.
Just an FYI, these things are readily available at machinery auctions online.
Glenn
Fun with numbers
Fun with numbers
Ok... here are some estimates... I had to make some "engineering estimates" - aka, I had to guess - but as a first order estimate, this will give you a feel for the project
This is for a horizontal field - not vertical boreholes
You will need 22 parallel tubes (1 inch OD) spaced 8-10 feet on center at a depth of 4 feet. The length of the heat exchange field will need to be 200 yards long. Basically, you will need 3 miles of tubing and cover an area around 2.5 acres - no problem if the farmer is willing. Each tube should carry water with a flowrate of 100 gph (total 2200 gph for the field).
Now this was for the simplest geometry, slinky tubes or multi tube per trench with start making the field smaller. If it is desired for the future, you could couple the field to a heat pump and get more cooling in the summer, as well as, provide heating in the winter.
Fun with numbers
Ok... here are some estimates... I had to make some "engineering estimates" - aka, I had to guess - but as a first order estimate, this will give you a feel for the project
This is for a horizontal field - not vertical boreholes
You will need 22 parallel tubes (1 inch OD) spaced 8-10 feet on center at a depth of 4 feet. The length of the heat exchange field will need to be 200 yards long. Basically, you will need 3 miles of tubing and cover an area around 2.5 acres - no problem if the farmer is willing. Each tube should carry water with a flowrate of 100 gph (total 2200 gph for the field).
Now this was for the simplest geometry, slinky tubes or multi tube per trench with start making the field smaller. If it is desired for the future, you could couple the field to a heat pump and get more cooling in the summer, as well as, provide heating in the winter.
rick rottet
reefkeeper// propagator
:eek1: :eek2:
Whoa. 3 miles of tubing.
If there was to be slinky tubes or multiple tubes per trench, wouldn't that affect the heat transfer rate?
DIY chiller starting to look better now.
cseeton, I greatly appreciate you taking your time to work all of that out.
growyourown- Thanks for the info. Solicitation is implied since I am talking about all of this in a public forum.
Are you chilling water that flows through the molds, or using the refigerant itself??
Whoa. 3 miles of tubing.
If there was to be slinky tubes or multiple tubes per trench, wouldn't that affect the heat transfer rate?
DIY chiller starting to look better now.
cseeton, I greatly appreciate you taking your time to work all of that out.
growyourown- Thanks for the info. Solicitation is implied since I am talking about all of this in a public forum.
Are you chilling water that flows through the molds, or using the refigerant itself??
