Lets talk about Vodka/sugar dosing

[SDguy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12733104#post12733104 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by stony_corals
- what questions do you have? I think what remains is good vs bad bacteria, carbon dosing promotes both. I haven't heard of anyone having any disease issues. But since there are bacteria living on corals themselves, how are the corals impacted by this? What other organisms growth rates are increased by carbon dosing (some report some algae growth).

I heard Mike Paletta speak at MAX in April. He uses vodka dosing for small periods of time once or twice a year to lower P and N (so not a constant balance to keep a certain level, as I understood it). Anyway, he did mention at least two very specific examples of vodka overdosing causing very bad bacterial infections in fish. I know you were probably referring to coral disease here, but just thought I'd share this info.

 

[stony_corals]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12733166#post12733166 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by SDguy
I heard Mike Paletta speak at MAX in April. He uses vodka dosing for small periods of time once or twice a year to lower P and N (so not a constant balance to keep a certain level, as I understood it). Anyway, he did mention at least two very specific examples of vodka overdosing causing very bad bacterial infections in fish. I know you were probably referring to coral disease here, but just thought I'd share this info.

I was... but yeah fish disease too seems a potential risk... Not to mention to hobbyist?!? We had someone in our local club catch something last year that cause major swelling in their hands, like a catchers mit!

 

[MammothReefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12732901#post12732901 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Canarygirl
what is "NOM NOM NOM NOM?"

The sound bacteria makes when it's eating!

 

[GSMguy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12733194#post12733194 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MammothReefer
The sound bacteria makes when it's eating!

:lol: :lol:hmmm Vodka, NOM NOM NOM NOM... (after 4 Noms they are Drunk and begin to use bad language, Content edited for RC)

 

[Kolognekoral]

Concern for negative influencing bacteria could certainly be an issue, but, as I see it, with ULNS, we are moving toward a more natural form of filtration that supports a more balanced biosystem. This end has always been, in my mind, problematic for a single carbon dosing system, such as just vodka. Such a one-sided feeding regimen might be overly benefiting specific bacteria (amongst other organisms), while other, potentially good/bad guilds are being starved or placed under stress. Essentially, we do not know exactly what is going on, cell for cell, bacteria for bacteria.

From my own experiences with the Zeovit method, I have found many fish easier to manage, such as A. achilles, A. leucosternon and company. Apparently, there are additional beneficial effects to bacterial driven systems. The other side of the coin should be true as well, but, just perhaps, we are getting closer to a natural equilibrium whereby disease doesn't tend to get the upper hand.

We may be dealing with something akin to organic gardening, with its biodiversity and practice of promoting a wide range of fungal and bacterial guilds in the garden. Immitating nature as well as we are able.

other organisms that certainly benefit from bacterial systems are sponges, tunicate and similar feeders, clams, crinoids, small crustaceans, small hydroids, gorgonians, etc. I have a few crinoids that clearly react to increases in bacteria in the water column, while others are generally thriving! Something complex and positive is taking place.

 

[stony_corals]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12733194#post12733194 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MammothReefer
The sound bacteria makes when it's eating!

I was thinking .... Cookie Monster!

 

[Zedar]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12733121#post12733121 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by stony_corals
How do you know they aren't competing?!?

err i dont good point

 

[SDguy]

You can tell if they are, it looks like this, just really really small

 

[glassbox-design]

As I enjoy my current self-carbon dosed state, I had a realization based on Matt's comment.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12733104#post12733104 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by stony_corals
ZEO provides the reactor as a means of cultivating bacteria guilds in itself and not the tank. Sure there is a source of carbon, but there are other environmental benefits such as a source of strains to be cultivated, a unique substrate, and decreased flow, etc...

They also provide a means of replacing that substrate, which in theory should help keep populations in check before drifting away from the desired strains. Possibly an important factor.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12710911#post12710911 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by melev
That was then, this is now, and we have plenty of knowledgeable people here on RC that can put together a good write up. One person has already contacted me via PM, and I have no problem with a few of the regulars in this thread forming a committee to come up with the article together. When threads like this one grow to such lengths, it almost is a necessity that an article be written to get the meaty information out to the most people.

Melev,
I applaud you for even considering this.

 

[melev]

So in an effort to keep gathering information, let's get some input on these random thoughts of mine. Please feel free to not only answer, but also include your own questions or experiences as those comments may round out the article nicely.

1) What is the water quality like? Better clarity? Cloudy?
2) What effect occurs when switching brands of Vodka?
3) What is the rule of measuring out Vodka (ml per x gallons)?
4) What do you do if you overdose the tank in an emergency?
5) How long until you see results?
6) Is this ongoing, or is this a regime that is done one week a month, or every other month?
7) What effect can one expect when dosings cease?
8) What time of day is best to dose, or does that even matter?
9) Does running GAC actively (through a canister filter or phosban reactor) work against the vodka dosings?
10) Should GFO be used, or is it better to remove it?
11) Does vodka affect any parameters such as Alk?

 

[mhaith]

How does it affect:
DSB
ORP
Aiding Mono cultures
Trace Elements
Coloration
Growth
Non-SPS, needing higher nitrates
Flow/Lighting requirements
Additional supplementation

Overall what are participants particular dosing experiences and in what circumstances where the final or on-going results achieved?

 

[Whalehead9]

1. What about other carbon sources? (sugar, Vinegar)
2. What about probiotic bacterial sources? (Zeo, Prodibio, FM, etc.)

 

[mhaith]

Here is my set-up;
210 SPS dominant mixed reef with 50g tri-plex fuge/sump deep sand bed, chaeto (Melev Bulbs), LR.
2X2LFishies reactors w/GFO-GAC, 40W UV, ASM3, Kalk ATO 4gals/day. + 200 mls of 2 part + mag.
950w T5, 2XVortech, Barracuda return = 9000+gph
20% WC every 2 wks. AA, Sponge Power, Phyto
3ml Grey Goose (all I had), Sugar, Vinegar-dosed in morning.

PH-8.1-8.4 daily
Alk-9
Calc 440
Nit-ND
Phos-ND
Mag-1300
Temp. 75-80

OK, with that out of the way, I Bought a 2 yr. old FOWLR and converted it to a mixed reef. At 4 mos. old, Nitrates were still 25, Phosphates .25 with all that filtration. I started dosing vodka at .5 ml and increased over 2 wks to 2ml and achieved Non-Detectable Nit/Phos. At 6 mos. I stopped for a month with no ill effects. I Just started again at 2ml to try and increase the color. and I have increased to 3ml after a week of dosing at 2ml and already see subtle brightening. My Rics and LPS are not thrilled but the SPS is coloring up nicely.
I feed very heavily 2X daily a mix of Cyclopeeze, F1, Rods, Oyster Eggs, Prawn Eggs, Mysis, Phyto, both under moonlights to the corals but also to my 2 anthias, 2 large tangs, 4 sm. gobies, 2 cardinals during the day.
No algae in the tank but Chaeto grows FAST!

I believe I have had success with this method either because my tank finally cycled or the carbon source helped get it over the hump. Either way, I have used moderation by design so there would be no ill effects. I have gone slow and been very happy with the results so far.

As a final thought, I have a young system and I have read as much as I could get my hands on before dosing. That being said, this is only my experience and there could be many, many reasons other than the carbon for the positive results.

My .02

 

[SDguy]

I did it for several months. Went too fast at first, I think like most people do, and caused a bloom. No biggie. I then dosed for a few months. Quick and dirty, this is what I saw:

1. No difference in water clarity, though I was already using ozone and carbon, so didn't have any issues to begin with.

2. Used only one brand, the cheapest stuff at VONS.

3. I followed the directions in the link in the very first post in this thread. Eventually, I found 5mL per day for my tank worked well.

4. No biggie in my case, I just turned up the skimmer and skimmed wet. Peeuuw does it smell bad though!! Seriously, stop dosing, and turn up the skimmer....biggest issue is lack of O2 in the water.

5. In my case, months. I think I should have waited much longer (weeks), between 1mL increases in my system to see results. Also, I don't own a Hanna colorimeter...I think this is an invaluable piece of equipment when doing something like this. Eventually my P was at 0.02

6. Daily

7. In my case, back to brown, baby! I tried stopping due to recession problems. I ended up with brown corals that continued receding. Hello AEFW, nice to meet y'all!

8. I dose during lights on, since bacterial respiration lowers ORP and can lower pH. I also dose only when I know my skimmer head won't be getting killed soon by something like PE mysis.

9. I found mine tended to clump a bit, which never happened before vodka (due to bacteria?). Otherwise, not sure of any ill effects while dosing, IME.

10. No idea...I used it...I suppose I would stop after reaching 0.02 P

11. Only parameter I noticed affected was ORP, and maybe pH (tough to track that closely in my case).

All in all, I was very happy with the final result of my vodka dosing. I had a ton of fish and richly colored corals. After my AEFW adventure is complete, and my acros are back in the tank, I will continue to monitor their progress. I continue vodka dosing to this day.

 

[Zedar]

1) What is the water quality like? Better clarity? Cloudy?

Its cloudy if you OD (bacterial bloom). Otherwise its the clearest you can achieve. As a matter of fact it may cause STN, RTN if you have an established tank, due to the quick change in clarity. Kinda like changing to a higher wattage bulb without giving the corals time to adapt.

2) What effect occurs when switching brands of Vodka?

None. As long as its the same proof. 40% alcohol is what i use. Cheapest stuff i can find.

3) What is the rule of measuring out Vodka (ml per x gallons)?

There is no hard fast rule, each tank responds differently . The safest dosing schedule is the following.

.1ml per day per 25 gallons

Increasing by .1ml each day till No3/P04 start to drop. Hold that schedule till you reach 0 N03 .03 P04 then reduce the dosage in half.

100 gallon tank.

day 1
.4ml
day2
.5ml
day 3
.6ml
day21
2.4 ml nitrates start dropping hold this till they drop to 0 then
1.2 ml maintenance dosage

Others have been more aggressive with this schedule.

.5ml per 25 gallons
add .5 ml each week.


4) What do you do if you overdose the tank in an emergency?

I would aerate the tank to increase 02

5) How long until you see results?

That depends on the system. A dirty tank could take a year to clean up fully. P04 is locked up in the rock and takes time to be removed

6) Is this ongoing, or is this a regime that is done one week a month, or every other month?

This is done for the life of the tank. You feed your fish daily (at least I hope so).

7) What effect can one expect when dosings cease?

Your tank will go back to being ORGANIC Carbon limited. The bacteria will die off and in time the tanks P04 N03 will rise.

8) What time of day is best to dose, or does that even matter?

I dont belive it matters.

9) Does running GAC actively (through a canister filter or phosban reactor) work against the vodka dosings?

The jury is still out on this one. Some say dont run GAC because the tank will become P04 limited, the bacteria will die and N03 will rise. Some people use GAC and have no N03 problems.

10) Should GFO be used, or is it better to remove it?

Its not needed IMHO. So why spend the money?

11) Does vodka affect any parameters such as Alk?

Indirectly it does. Coral growth increases in the systems so Alk and Calc dosage must be adjusted accordingly.

 

[SDguy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12737839#post12737839 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Zedar
The jury is still out on this one. Some say dont run GAC because the tank will become P04 limited, the bacteria will die and N03 will rise. Some people use GAC and have no N03 problems.

Interesting point, since my nitrates are higher than my phosphates. I'll try removing my GAC, since it's time to change it anyways, and just use carbon in there.

 

[Zedar]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12745112#post12745112 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by SDguy
Interesting point, since my nitrates are higher than my phosphates. I'll try removing my GAC, since it's time to change it anyways, and just use carbon in there.

Some people have found that a little nitrate is good for color with SPS corals. Its believed "by some" that dosing AA's is providing N03 without P04. And its this N03 that helps the corals color up. I'm not so sure. Why not assume thats its the amino's themselves that are providing the corals with needed nutrients that cause the improved color?

 

[MammothReefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12745678#post12745678 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Zedar
Some people have found that a little nitrate is good for color with SPS corals. Its believed "by some" that dosing AA's is providing N03 without P04. And its this N03 that helps the corals color up. I'm not so sure. Why not assume thats its the amino's themselves that are providing the corals with needed nutrients that cause the improved color?

I do not believe our corals are feeding on nitrate, nitrate is just the by product of the waste when we feed our corals.. I believe the ultimate goal is to feed our corals as much as they need and then to export the byproducts (waste) of there feedings before it contaminates our water. I think if your dosing heavy aa's and feeding all the time, and some how manging to export the waste before it shows up on a test kit.. You'd be doing just find, but with that said our corals are able to tolerate some of these pollutions in small amounts

 

[SDguy]

That would seem to be a pretty easy thing to test...add nitrate instead of AA's and see what happens

 

[just dave]

Brightwell Aquatics has just released Reef Bio Fuel .

Overview
• Helps maintain a balanced nutrient-limited marine aquarium by enabling the hobbyist to enhance the rate of microbial growth and reproduction, increasing the rate of phosphate-reduction and denitrification; this is of particular benefit in heavily-stocked, well-fed reef aquaria.
• Replaces “vodka method” of microbial activity-enhancement with a completely safe and biologically-sound, non-flammable alternative to using vodka or ethanol.
• Indirectly benefits corals and other suspension-feeding invertebrates by encouraging reproduction of bacterioplankton (an important food source for suspension-feeding invertebrates).
• Encourages polyp-expansion in all corals.
• May be used to help expedite biological filtration in new set-ups.
• Formulated by a marine scientist.



and



MICROBACTER 7


Overview:
• Complex system of non-pathogenic aerobic andanaerobic microbes, as well as natural enzymes, specifically formulated to establish biological filtrationin new aquarium set-ups, and to enhance the rate of nitrification, denitrification, and organic waste degradation in marine and freshwater aquaria through complete nutrient remineralization.


I tried to see if this had already been posted but at about page 20 I started finding it hard to see and wanted to post before I completely lost my eyesight.