Lets talk about Vodka/sugar dosing

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Too bad one cannot simply access that entire article. From the little that whet our appetites, it seems that only glucose is absorbed, which is not table sugar. The assimilation appears to be minimal, however, as only a small portion was actually metabolized. Absorbtion of a nutrient in a water environment does not implicate ulitilization. It simply shows the subject can take it up through its cell walls. We shouldn't extrapolate too much from this little tid-bit of information.

In the end, I don't think sugars are important to algaes as a main nutrition source. They are capable of photosynthesizing their own. The limiting factor is carbon-ammonia-phosphate. Raw materials.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12562678#post12562678 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Kolognekoral
Too bad one cannot simply access that entire article. From the little that whet our appetites, it seems that only glucose is absorbed, which is not table sugar. The assimilation appears to be minimal, however, as only a small portion was actually metabolized. Absorbtion of a nutrient in a water environment does not implicate ulitilization. It simply shows the subject can take it up through its cell walls. We shouldn't extrapolate too much from this little tid-bit of information.

In the end, I don't think sugars are important to algaes as a main nutrition source. They are capable of photosynthesizing their own. The limiting factor is carbon-ammonia-phosphate. Raw materials.
Click to expand...


Yea to bad the hole thing aint there? I have no idea if that article it true or not but I have some doubts if and why would algae even need to do it and if they do does it happen all the time?

First off all algae produce glucose! What do zooxanthellae produce for a coral?... Glucose (carbohydrates). Zooxanthellae are dinoflagellates which is a brown algae.

Glucose is a byproduct of chlorophyll? If that is so why and when would algae need to uptake glucose from the water? I am also not so sure they are talking about algae even uptaking glucose from the water, they might be talking about getting it from the chlorophyll..


Dave
 
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<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12563094#post12563094 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mesocosm
The full article is here (slow download):

Edward A Drew (1969). Uptake and Metabolism of Exogenously Supplied Sugars by Brown Algae. New PhytoL 68, 35-43.
http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/pdf/10.1111/j.1469-8137.1969.tb06417.x


:thumbsup:
Click to expand...

Ah should have read another post down... I will have to read it tomorrow .. Thanks for posting this...


Dave
 
Jamie, thanks for pointing out the far reaching extrapolation. It's bifurcated in that respect. First I'm assuming brown algae and macroalgae function similarly. Second I'm assuming table sugar is also taken up by the same mechanism as glucose. Both are out there a bit but I was hoping to stimulate some conversation. Maybe others have some papers or references they could chime in with.
 
Well, Gary, thanks for the connection. Where do you find all these things out? Forget it, I don't need to know! :confused:

Apparently the algaes considered do not assimilate these absorbed sugars in any quantity and the small amount noted may well be bacterial use within the organism. Based on this, I think we can safely say that sugar from the v/s/v method doesn't play a role in algae growth.

I learned something :D
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12568465#post12568465 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Leopard Man
Will dosing Vodka/sugar decrease the time for the cycling stage?
Click to expand...

Most likely nothing if you are doing it with live rock esp uncured rock.. There is already plenty of nutrients available during cycling... Adding bacteria might help though.

If you are doing it from bare bleached dead rock it could help adding a carbon source but bacteria needs to be added because there will be very little bacteria.

Dave
 
Ok,

Thanks Dave.

Can someone clarify exactly what types of bacteria are being produced, besides denitrifying ones. Or is identifying all bacteria impossible to do?
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12569299#post12569299 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Leopard Man
Ok,

Thanks Dave.

Can someone clarify exactly what types of bacteria are being produced, besides denitrifying ones. Or is identifying all bacteria impossible to do?
Click to expand...

Not impossible. Just improbable. Costs money, time, and in the end it may differ between aquariums which strands become the most dominant.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12569386#post12569386 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Genetics
Not impossible. Just improbable. Costs money, time, and in the end it may differ between aquariums which strands become the most dominant.
Click to expand...

Cheers!
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12564530#post12564530 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Kolognekoral

Apparently the algaes considered do not assimilate these absorbed sugars in any quantity and the small amount noted may well be bacterial use within the organism. Based on this, I think we can safely say that sugar from the v/s/v method doesn't play a role in algae growth.
Click to expand...

You're right. I misread that entire paper the first time I went through it. I hate when you read something quickly and read it one way just to find out you missed the entire point of the paper. So it appears that table sugar is not readily uptaken by algae. Any assimilation may have been from bacteria..... :eek1: So I too have learned something from this paper.... :D
 
Greetings All !



<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12569299#post12569299 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Leopard Man
... Can someone clarify exactly what types of bacteria are being produced, besides denitrifying ones. ...
Click to expand...
For some insight into the dizzying array of bacteria that are potentially present in our captive marine ecosystems, check this one out ...



Diversity of bacteria associated with the Caribbean coral Montastraea franksi
Rowher, Breitbart, Jara, Azam & Knowlton
Coral Reefs (2001) 20: 85-91

Full Article
http://www.marine.usf.edu/genomics/PDFs of papers/rohweretal2001.pdf



Do a quick scan of Tables 1 & 2 on pages 4 and 5, respectively. If this type of consortia is being introduced into our systems by the corals that we place into our tanks, all the listed bacteria are potentially detaching from their coral holobiont association ... and therefore may be involved in the biofilm(s) that we are primarily interested in when we discuss nitrification & denitrification.

Folks who think that Nitrosomonas, Nitrobacter, and Biospira are the only bacterial players involved in the biogeochemical pathways that stablize the nutrient levels in our systems are woefully uninformed.

:D



Arguably more interesting is the follow-up research ...


Diversity and distribution of coral-associated bacteria
Forest Rohwer, Victor Seguritan, Farooq Azam, Nancy Knowlton
Marine Ecology Progress Series (2002) Vol. 243: 1-10

Full Article
http://striweb.si.edu/publications/PDFs/Knowlton_2002_MarEcoProSer.pdf


Check out Figure 4 on page 7 for yet another detailed list of indentified strains. More intriguing is this quote from the abstract, "Analysis of only 14 coral samples yielded 430 distinct bacterial ribotypes. Statistical analyses suggest that additional sequencing would have resulted in a total of 6000 bacterial ribotypes."

It's quotes like this that lead me to conclude that the notion that we can produce a "monoculture" by carbon dosing is laughable. Competitive exclusion is NOT the only ecological mechanism in play. "Constructive interference" is also operant ... just what did you think that bacterial inoculants were actually doing? Merely increasing bacterial biomass? ...

... :lol:



It should also be noted that the relationship between the bacterial guild in our systems, and the color & growth patterns of zooxanthellate corals, may be significantly more interesting than is commonly acknowledged in reefkeeping discussion boards. A model of this relationship is presented in Figure 5 on page 8 (extracted below) of the 2002 article.

holobiont_fig5.jpg







Not JMO ... this is the science.
:thumbsup:
 
Good papers. Interesting ideas floating around. I liked this one from Rohwer et al. "phylogenetic
analysis of these bacteria (Fig. 4) suggests many
possibilities. For example, many of the coral-associated
bacterial ribotypes are most closely related to known
nitrogen fixers and antibiotic producers. Interestingly,
9 out of the 93 ribotypes that appear more than once
are most closely related to proposed endosymbionts
from both terrestrial and marine organisms."
 
Im new to the vodka dosing method. I know good skimming is necessary for vodka dosing. I have a octopus 110 recirculating skimmer. The skimmer has the meshmod and I increased the diameter of the venturi. its a 70 gallon tank. Is my skimmer big enough to dose vodka?
I started dosing 4 days ago with about 0.5 ml / day. it seems to me that the decorative macroalgae has really started growing fast since I started the vodka doses.

I plan on using the vodka. sugar. vinegar mix but decide to start slow with only vodka to avoid a sudden bacterial bloom. My reasoning behind this is that using vodka/sugar /vinegar would provide many different carbon sources, hence many different bacterium growing all at once and perhaps to sudden.
I hope I dont create only a few dominate bacteriaal population by only using. vodka.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12604242#post12604242 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Malifluous
Im new to the vodka dosing method. I know good skimming is necessary for vodka dosing. I have a octopus 110 recirculating skimmer. The skimmer has the meshmod and I increased the diameter of the venturi. its a 70 gallon tank. Is my skimmer big enough to dose vodka?
I started dosing 4 days ago with about 0.5 ml / day. it seems to me that the decorative macroalgae has really started growing fast since I started the vodka doses.

I plan on using the vodka. sugar. vinegar mix but decide to start slow with only vodka to avoid a sudden bacterial bloom. My reasoning behind this is that using vodka/sugar /vinegar would provide many different carbon sources, hence many different bacterium growing all at once and perhaps to sudden.
I hope I dont create only a few dominate bacteriaal population by only using. vodka.
Click to expand...

What is your TSV? I have a HEAVILY modded, champ skimming reirc 110 and I feel that I could use a little more skimmer for my 45g or so TSV.
 
Now that I have a bit of free time in my life I feel a little behind when Mesocosm posts. So to catch up the first thing is to stop reading articles from 1950s/60s and start reading more current pertinent articles.

There are a few more recent articles out about bacterial distribution in corals. Interestingly, it seems that there are many bacteria that will harbor refuge in coral due to biogeography but not all. A review of such material can be found in:
Microbial biogeography: putting microorganisms on the map
Jennifer B. Hughes Martiny, et al.
Nature Review Microbiology 2006, Vol 4: 102-112.

Delving away from that thought, there seems to be some research out there pointing to nitrogen limitation and growth of zooxanthellae.
Population Control in Symbiotic Corals: Ammonium ions and organic materials maintain the density of zooxanthellae
Paul G. Falkowski, Zvy Dubinsky, Leonard Muscatine, and Lawrence McCloskey
BioScience 1993, Vol. 43 No.9: 606-11.

Moreover, we found that branches enriched with inorganic nitrogen were darker than either unenriched control corals or corals enriched with phosphate or brine shrimp alone. Unlike the situation for corals growing in full sun and in the shade, however, analyses of the zooxanthellae population densities revealed that corals supplemented with inorganic nitrogen had up to 2.5-fold more algae per unit area than either unenriched corals or corals supplemented with phosphate or brine shrimp. These results led us to conclude that nitrogen, and nitrogen alone, limits the biomass of zooxanthellae within the animal host.

I like to extrapolate a bit far sometimes but this could arguably give reason to dosing amino acids. Though they used ammonia for the experiment the coloration was better on the coral compared to controls. Additionally, they provide a mechanism for ammonia uptake and amino acid synthesis.
 
Thanks for all that! Nice informative read.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12589508#post12589508 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mesocosm
Greetings All !



For some insight into the dizzying array of bacteria that are potentially present in our captive marine ecosystems, check this one out ...



Diversity of bacteria associated with the Caribbean coral Montastraea franksi
Rowher, Breitbart, Jara, Azam & Knowlton
Coral Reefs (2001) 20: 85-91

Full Article
http://www.marine.usf.edu/genomics/PDFs of papers/rohweretal2001.pdf



Do a quick scan of Tables 1 & 2 on pages 4 and 5, respectively. If this type of consortia is being introduced into our systems by the corals that we place into our tanks, all the listed bacteria are potentially detaching from their coral holobiont association ... and therefore may be involved in the biofilm(s) that we are primarily interested in when we discuss nitrification & denitrification.

Folks who think that Nitrosomonas, Nitrobacter, and Biospira are the only bacterial players involved in the biogeochemical pathways that stablize the nutrient levels in our systems are woefully uninformed.

:D



Arguably more interesting is the follow-up research ...


Diversity and distribution of coral-associated bacteria
Forest Rohwer, Victor Seguritan, Farooq Azam, Nancy Knowlton
Marine Ecology Progress Series (2002) Vol. 243: 1-10

Full Article
http://striweb.si.edu/publications/PDFs/Knowlton_2002_MarEcoProSer.pdf


Check out Figure 4 on page 7 for yet another detailed list of indentified strains. More intriguing is this quote from the abstract, "Analysis of only 14 coral samples yielded 430 distinct bacterial ribotypes. Statistical analyses suggest that additional sequencing would have resulted in a total of 6000 bacterial ribotypes."

It's quotes like this that lead me to conclude that the notion that we can produce a "monoculture" by carbon dosing is laughable. Competitive exclusion is NOT the only ecological mechanism in play. "Constructive interference" is also operant ... just what did you think that bacterial inoculants were actually doing? Merely increasing bacterial biomass? ...

... :lol:



It should also be noted that the relationship between the bacterial guild in our systems, and the color & growth patterns of zooxanthellate corals, may be significantly more interesting than is commonly acknowledged in reefkeeping discussion boards. A model of this relationship is presented in Figure 5 on page 8 (extracted below) of the 2002 article.

holobiont_fig5.jpg







Not JMO ... this is the science.
:thumbsup:
Click to expand...
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12606946#post12606946 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Genetics
Now that I have a bit of free time in my life I feel a little behind when Mesocosm posts. So to catch up the first thing is to stop reading articles from 1950s/60s and start reading more current pertinent articles.

There are a few more recent articles out about bacterial distribution in corals. Interestingly, it seems that there are many bacteria that will harbor refuge in coral due to biogeography but not all. A review of such material can be found in:
Microbial biogeography: putting microorganisms on the map
Jennifer B. Hughes Martiny, et al.
Nature Review Microbiology 2006, Vol 4: 102-112.

Delving away from that thought, there seems to be some research out there pointing to nitrogen limitation and growth of zooxanthellae.
Population Control in Symbiotic Corals: Ammonium ions and organic materials maintain the density of zooxanthellae
Paul G. Falkowski, Zvy Dubinsky, Leonard Muscatine, and Lawrence McCloskey
BioScience 1993, Vol. 43 No.9: 606-11.

Moreover, we found that branches enriched with inorganic nitrogen were darker than either unenriched control corals or corals enriched with phosphate or brine shrimp alone. Unlike the situation for corals growing in full sun and in the shade, however, analyses of the zooxanthellae population densities revealed that corals supplemented with inorganic nitrogen had up to 2.5-fold more algae per unit area than either unenriched corals or corals supplemented with phosphate or brine shrimp. These results led us to conclude that nitrogen, and nitrogen alone, limits the biomass of zooxanthellae within the animal host.

I like to extrapolate a bit far sometimes but this could arguably give reason to dosing amino acids. Though they used ammonia for the experiment the coloration was better on the coral compared to controls. Additionally, they provide a mechanism for ammonia uptake and amino acid synthesis.
Click to expand...

Good stuff. Though I think it's another "it depends".... I think if your corals are suffering from N limitation, ie look pastel, then amino supplementation might well help out with this. However, if the system contains higher than NSW levels of inorganic N, then it'd still not be prudent. If our goal is reduction of nutrients in order to maintain coloration, we don't want too high zoox densities that hide the pigments. (I know this is not what you are saying..)

I gotta read these, thanks again! Dang, the second one needs to be purchased?!?
 
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Alright.. I made it threw 32 pages.. *breath out*. So I started vodka dosing last week.. Started @ 4.5ml (for a 450-500gallon system (don't know true gallons)). I'm planning on raising it up about 1ml every other week.. So far after a week.. I really haven't seen any changes. (didn't expect to either, but I did have my figures crossed ;) ) I need to pick up p04 / nitrate test kits but... Visually it's quite obvious I have a nutrient problem on the rise.. I'm running GFO/Carbon and a BM250.. I do have an ozone unit but I'm currently not running it.

With that said, what type of time frame has everybody experienced when it comes to "first signs" of nutrient reduction?
 
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