LFS Has New FAST Acclimation Process

[gobygoby]

having worked at serveral LFS's....float and dump is what is standard. atleast the bag water was discarded and not put into the systems.

you would be hard pressed to find any LFS that has enough space to Q'tine anything. not to mention the extra $$$ in utilities, man power, and equipment needed.

I would imagine that if Q'tining was common practice, the cost of livestock would be much higher.

and think about it this way. if on any random order to an LFS they have a 25% death rate (which is prettyt high) on a $1000 order they lose $250. and lets say the order s 50 fish.

so they lost 12 fish.

the amount of money to house and Q'tine 50 fish for a week is way more then losing $250. if figure that some of the losses are DOA, so they get credit back from the supplier. so they may have only lost $150.

the money to pay an employee, mediation, salt,....any resource that needs to be renewed will cost more then the loss.

.02

Goby

 

[leebca]

Remember Goby. . .The topic is acclimation, not quarantine. What is the cost of acclimation compared to the dump method? (excluding quarantine).

 

[Steven Pro]

The tanks needed to bring the low pH up water back to normal over 24 hours would necessarily be QT tanks. You couldn't use the regular for sale tanks as there are inevitably fish still there from previous orders. Plus, you couldn't send fish home to buyers in water that had a pH of 7.0. So, to implement a slow pH adjustment would require additional tanks to receive fish into, adjust them up over 24 hours, and then eventually move them to the for sale tanks.

 

[Steven Pro]

It may not last a full month or longer that a true quarantine period would require, but it would necessitate a separate system.

 

[leebca]

Steven,

You're wavering from the topic. The topic is the fast acclimation. No one has proposed (?) a 24-hour acclimation process for pH adjustment, unless I'm missing a post. I'm talking about the 'fast method' vs. the standard 1.5 to 2 hour method after the 15-20 minute float. I've performed the 1.5 to 2 hour method and had pH within 0.1 units of each other.

What's the cost to the LFS of dumping the fish in the for-sale tank vs. a 1.5 to 2-hour acclimation period?

Within that 2 hour acclimation process most advocated, the salinity and pH comes very close to matching the water the fish are going into.

 

[gobygoby]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6685938#post6685938 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by leebca
Remember Goby. . .The topic is acclimation, not quarantine. What is the cost of acclimation compared to the dump method? (excluding quarantine).

I realize that. however as Steven said, acclimation or(quarintine) would require a seperate system.

if you propose to say "drip" acclimate livestock where would you do this.

at one LFS, we took a styro box and dumped lots of fish in there and dripped water from the fish system in to the box. therefore the fish could get adjusted to the water.

but that caused stryo boxes and airline tubing to be all over the place. customers basically couldnt get with 3 feet of the tanks for up to 2 hours because the boxes were sitting in front of them.

even if done this way, you would still have to replenish the lost salt water ($$) from the from drip and potentially lose sales because people cant really get up to the sales tanks. also, numerous fish in a box about the size of a 30 gal tank. there are bound to be fights, fish gfetting stressed, and nipped fins..etc...now in the process of acclimation some fish may die and or be exposed to infections...

I do agree, and think it would make the world a better place if LFS's were able to acclimate fish "properly" but, sorry to say, most LFS's arent catering to the fish, they are catering to the customer, who spend $$. its cost effective for them float and dump. they want to move product fast, and can make more doing it that way.

sorry to say but thats the reality of the american dream.

 

[leebca]

TerryB.

It's easy to make non-specific generalities, e.g.:

I find large changes in the pH and temperature to cause the most problems with fish health and stress.

but I don't think this is helpful. What's the pH difference that's a concern? what's the temperature difference that's a concern? what's your reference(s)? Without the facts can we make the decision of which method reduces fish loss?

If the above can't be answered without further investigation, then we're back to having to perform a standard acclimation, EXCEPT that Adam's post indicates a reduced fish loss from the fast acclimation process vs. the drip method. I believe one of the worst acclimation processes would be the drip method in the case of marine fishes, but what of the 'fast' v. 'highly advocated' acclimation 1.5-2 hour process?

Another question along this line. . .What if I added an ammonia absorbent to the bag water, then raised the pH of the (floating)bag water without mixing aquarium water with it, then dumped the fish after the pH was adjusted over an hour or X time period? But the time would still rely upon knowing what is an important/significant/unacceptable difference in pH between tank and bag waters.

Some shippers use an ammonia blocker in their shipping water. Some are commercially available.

That's my target discussion.

 

[gobygoby]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6686557#post6686557 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by leebca
I believe one of the worst acclimation processes would be the drip method in the case of marine fishes,

whats wrong with that? dripping tank water into the fishes original water will slowly adjust the water to the same params....

 

[gobygoby]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6686557#post6686557 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by leebca
Another question along this line. . .What if I added an ammonia absorbent to the bag water, then raised the pH of the (floating)bag water without mixing aquarium water with it, then dumped the fish after the pH was adjusted over an hour or X time period? But the time would still rely upon knowing what is an important/significant/unacceptable difference in pH between tank and bag waters.

Some shippers use an ammonia blocker in their shipping water. Some are commercially available.

That's my target discussion.

I dont think adding anything to such a small closed environment can be good.

what if the ammonia blocker was tainted in some way and the shipper used this on every single bag....then 100% of that shipment would be at risk, even before the "acclimation" process started.

when you start complicating things, you start adding risks. even adding oxygen to a bag has a risk, upon open the bag, and the air mixes with c02, the ammonia will spike...and virtually no time for any type of acclimation

 

[leebca]

gobygoby Hi!

First, an efficient drip method:
I've seen wholesalers do this on a massive scale:
Bagged fish & bag water dumped into container; container floats in wholesaler tank; drip tube dropped into container; drip begun; container overflow water goes into wholesaler tank.

The container is left unmonitored.

At the proper time, operator turns off drip; dumps fish and water into wholesaler tank; stores container on rack above tanks; goes to next floating container.

No water loss. In fact, a water gain from adding bag water to wholesaler tanks.

The drip water comes from a low-pressure pipe running the length of the row above and out of sight of the wholesaler tank. Pipe 'risers' at intervals are fitted with tubing with a plastic flow control or just tied in knots to limit flow.

The LFS you worked at wasn't prepared for this kind of handling. But the above is done without mess, is efficient (for this process) and has very little time consumption. It takes some preparation and planning, but once setup it isn't offensive to the eye. In fact, looking over such operations, I came to the conclusion that too little attention was given the fishes handled like this. I could see suffering and dying fish in these containers compared to other processes.

The drip method is not generally considered an optimal acclimation process for marine fishes. The fishes suffer for the confinement for such a long time. They are producing more ammonia while acclimating, which the drip system may not catch up on. In essence, too much time and the stress too great for this to be the preferred method. This is the desired method though for some inverts.

But, my point of the thread is what are the facts and which method reduces fish losses? I'm not sure any acclimation beyond temperature matching is needed unless the bag water has parameters that are too far off from the tank water they will be added, then one needs to know what difference(s) are significant and what procedure to best use.
:rollface:

 

[gobygoby]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6686770#post6686770 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by leebca

No water loss. In fact, a water gain from adding bag water to wholesaler tanks.

well. I can understand your point except this part.

so now that you have acclimated the new fish to current tank water you are willing to risk existing fish by exposing them to water with higher params then that they are used to, not to mention introducing any unwanted parasites, bacteria, viruses....that might be in the bag water?

afterall, dripping water doesnt actually make the bag water the exact same as tank water. its only a 50% mix so its closer to the tank, but not the same.

and hey back at ya.

 

[billsreef]

Interesting discussion. I've been at this for some 20 years at the retail level in one capacity or another, and always hands on with the livestock. I've seen some differences between the "theories" and what really happens. Over the years I've discovered that when acclimating overnight shipped fish, the float and drop method actually increased survival as opposed to using lengthy drip acclimation procedures. Also my experiences coincide with what has been said about fish tolerating a sudden drop in salinity better than a fast increase. As for pH differences, I find getting the fish back to normal pH values fast is better than slow. I liken it to leaving a very smog filled room and going outside for some fresh air

 

[TerryB]

Hi Lee,

A change in pH of more than .3 in a 24-hour period is going to be highly stressful with biochemical consequences to the fish. Temperature should be adjusted 2F per day, possibly 4F if the temperature is rising rather than falling. The second part of my series in Advanced Aquarist is due on the 15th. It may answer a lot of questions and it does have several references. As you can see by my response here, I believe SLOWER acclimation to temperature and pH changes are in order.

Terry B

 

[Gobie]

Ammonia becomes more toxic at a higher ph, the bag has more co2 in it supplied by the fishââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s respiration causing the pH to fall in the bag. As you do a drip method this will raise the ph in the bag and expose the fish in it to a lethal dose of ammonia. Float, cut, drain and drop is a better way to acclimate a shipped fish. IMO

 

[Crusty Old Shellback]

Just an FYI as I didn't read all of the post but did skim them. Temp diferences of about 8 degress dosen't seem to bother fish, inverts or corals. Case is point is that I rotuinly do 50% water changes on my tanks. I use NSW and store it outside until needed. I do nothing to the water before using it, including heat or aireaite it. I just siphon out the old and pour in the new. I can see temp swings on my therometer of up to 8 or 9 degress. I've been doing this for years and it hasn't bothered any of my inhabitants.

Matter of fact, everything is back out and opened in a few hours after a water change. I never had that happen when I was using ASW, mixing it up and letting it sit for a day.

So in my personal experience, I don't think tempature makes that big of a difference as everyone thinks. What they are doing for acclimation seems like nothing less than what I do during a water change.

 

[baobao]

Terry,
I've been adapting method of adjusting PH, temperature to fish bag and then dropping fish in qt. however, the air bubbles in qt brings the PH back up quickly, my hunch is that it is definitely faster than 0.3 in a 24 hour period. how do i ensure that PH is brought up slowly?

 

[leebca]

Thanks to all who are participating in this thread. Welcome to the ones who have just shown up. I encourage those who 'watch' or 'lurk' to contribute their experience, even if it might be anecdotal. Now, to some posts of my own. . .

 

[leebca]

gobygoby,

Remember, I was writing about wholesalers. They also have massive UV and skimmer systems and often run copper in their systems. (A couple use ozone, too). What do they fear of disease? The fish are sold within a couple of days and even in a few hours! That's how fast the fish can turn over. (I know retailers that visit wholesalers daily because prize specimens don't last much longer than a day.)

Here's the real kick --- what the retailers don't buy, the wholesaler bags and ships to mailorder customers. If it's moving; it's bagged! [And a couple that aren't, too]. So after the walk-ins pick over the goods, the rest are shipped out.

I don't disagree with your observations about disease. I find what they do personally appalling, but. . .that's what they do and they don't care anymore than using a UV, skimmer, and copper. Their goal is to make the fish look good to the wholesale purchaser (who sometimes does or doesn't care, too). If you don't want to buy their fish, get out of their way -- but they sell, sell, sell.

This is even a bigger reason for the aquarist to quarantine, IMHO. After what I've seen. . .

Thanks for your participation here!

 

[leebca]

billsreef,

Glad to see you here. I appreciate your experiences and insights.

I am beginning to be convinced that the 'float and drop' method might reduce losses of marine fish in the long run.

I'm once again quarantining some fish for a friend. I buy them and QT them. Some delicates and hardy. This is my recent list:

Chevron Butterfly (lumulatus)
Declivis
Muellers
Rainfordi
Regal Angel
Bennet's Butterfly
Sinagpore Angel
Kole Tang
Spotted Yellow Eye Tang

Each I've 'floated and dropped.' Still working with them, but after a week none have expired; half are eating.

Bag pH differences were as great as 0.5 pH units; salinity was as high as 0.005 differences. Temperatures were equalized.

billsreef: Do you have any actual numbers in the sense of the 'float and drop' method regarding pH and salinity differences between bag and tank waters?

:rolleye1:

 

[leebca]

TerryB,

I find those number interesting, but unrealistic. They are much too conservative from my experience and the actual practice.

I'll look forward to reading/seeing supporting data. But after acclimating fish with the 'float and drop' method with pH differences of 0.5 units (in 22 minutes), I haven't found any effects yet.

Are you sure that billsreef comment about getting them to the right pH is more important than a slow transition? I understand some of the biochemical/physiological ramifications, but the fishes I work with (mostly butterflyfishes, angelfishes, and tangs) seem to handle it.