Lights... hit me...

[ComforablyNumb]

So please cut out the silly blanket statements, thats all I'm asking.
LED's work fine and I happen to love the shimmer that you cannot get from t5

 

[Potatohead]

I think the only blanket statement I made was that T5 cover a lot better than LED which isn't really a far-fetched notion.

 

[ComforablyNumb]

A distinction with no real difference.
My corals are proof.

I have no reason to lie..I ran mH and t5 for years

And I still have them and would switch back if it would make any diff to my corals
Dont need the space heaters anymore and I was very happy to finally get rid of them.

 

[jda]

I am happy that you are happy with your choice.

I might suggest that you buy an extra panel and keep it for a rainy day. I think that you will find that your ten year expectation, along with upgradability and fixability will sound better on the interwebs than they do in practice. In any case, it is cheap insurance that you might consider since they will stop making these exact ones soon and while there will surely be new models, they are not always "upgrades" and might look different. You might need a panel or you just might need parts.

Lastly, if you expect people to take you seriously, you need to reset your calculations away from six month bulb changes for T5s. It is just too much and folks will think that you are cherry picking to make a point. A year is more like it, unless you are overdriving them, and that is what people want to see for a more fair analysis. Even at a year, it can be daunting for a large tank - people without large tanks just don't get the costs.

As for the point source, it is pretty much true. It is not just with LED... MH on a very small reflector or pendant will do the same thing. I am afraid that there is not much to argue here, it just is what it is... and a stylo with a dead LPS skeleton behind it, mushrooms and some BTAs are hardly proof otherwise. You can grow stylos in a fuge with a 100W screw in bulb on a clip-on reflector - this a fact too.

 

[ComforablyNumb]

I might suggest that you buy an extra panel and keep it for a rainy day.

I have plenty and I have an extra Kessil as well..was not needed.

Lastly, if you expect people to take you seriously, you need to reset your calculations away from six month bulb changes for T5s.

I didnt use a 6 month one for the t5 bulbs. I used an 18 month replacement schedule and one yr for the mH bulbs. Reasonable..no?

and a stylo with a dead LPS skeleton behind it, mushrooms and some BTAs are hardly proof otherwise.

What dead skeleton? The one from the first pic when the tank was brand new and was never a live coral at anytime I ever had it? C'mon man.

 

[Dugless]

The irregular and thin non-branching growth are telling that this stylophora was grown under single point lighting with poor refraction. Stylophora should be thick, dense and for the most part symmetrical. I want natural growth encouraged by proper light spread. Not frankencorals that appear to be growing away or towards a beam of light.

 

[Bronx19]

Not trying to be a jerk here, but it's a stylo which isn't difficult (for sps), and in the last pic the underside is white, which is kind of proving our/my point.

I thought the same. You can see the undersides of those branches are bone. Thats exactly what we dont want.

Gweeds, I forgot who I was talking to. When I said T5 hits the corals, I'm not referring to spectrum but the angle of the light. A round tube in a reflector sends light vertically down (like LED) and the reflector sends the rest across the tank in a very wide arc. The bulb that sits at the back of the tank is sending light right across the tank to the front glass pane. The bulb at the front does the opposite, and the same applies to all bulbs in between.

There is simply no way for light emitted from a diode, positioned above the tank, can hit the sides of SPS branches, thus they go bone white.

BTW, I'm all for cheap LED, I started with 2x Ocean Revive units and they served me well, until I got into SPS. I would also add that I think you're in for trouble trying to get a lot of years out of Chinese fixtures, they're made to be disposable.

 

[ComforablyNumb]

The irregular and thin non-branching growth are telling that this stylophora was grown under single point lighting with poor refraction.

What irregular and thin non-branching coral were you looking at?

FTS:

And dont let my low post count on this site fool you. I have been reefing since 1989 and have had large and small tanks.


Pics of a couple of my older ones from 1990 and 1998:

I thought the same. You can see the undersides of those branches are bone. Thats exactly what we dont want.

I have no idea what you are complaining about. Good healthy coral that grows quickly.

EDIT - I lost all my pics with PhotoSuckit and am now using Imgur. But I noticed my FTS is HHHHHHUGE.
Anyone know why that may be? If you right click on that image and open it in a new tab, it looks fine.

 

[Gweeds]

I am happy that you are happy with your choice.

I might suggest that you buy an extra panel and keep it for a rainy day. I think that you will find that your ten year expectation, along with upgradability and fixability will sound better on the interwebs than they do in practice. In any case, it is cheap insurance that you might consider since they will stop making these exact ones soon and while there will surely be new models, they are not always "upgrades" and might look different. You might need a panel or you just might need parts.

Lastly, if you expect people to take you seriously, you need to reset your calculations away from six month bulb changes for T5s. It is just too much and folks will think that you are cherry picking to make a point. A year is more like it, unless you are overdriving them, and that is what people want to see for a more fair analysis. Even at a year, it can be daunting for a large tank - people without large tanks just don't get the costs.

As for the point source, it is pretty much true. It is not just with LED... MH on a very small reflector or pendant will do the same thing. I am afraid that there is not much to argue here, it just is what it is... and a stylo with a dead LPS skeleton behind it, mushrooms and some BTAs are hardly proof otherwise. You can grow stylos in a fuge with a 100W screw in bulb on a clip-on reflector - this a fact too.

Thanks, that's a good shout re the extra panel.

Re the tube usage, I was working off my own experience with t5s over FW... within 6 months tube performance would reduce by over 50% and begin to encourage algae growth (225g ish planted) so had to be replaced... I didn't realise the marine tubes lasted twice as long...

Tbf, I think if you half the tube costs I projected, it's still a he'll of an outlay over 10 years... heck, I could buy 12 mars units and swap them out at 5 years and still be better off!

Completely agree with what you're saying re large tanks... I change 500ml of rowa each fortnight, the same in carbon. A water change of 10% is the same volume as some entire systems and I lose nearly 10 litres per day in evaporation!

My refuge alone is 120 litres... it's like pulling weeds in the garden harvesting the thing... not to mention the near 200kgs of rock (which would have cost £2800 at new prices).

The fact that I've kept set up costs to £2500 is testament to my bargain hunting skills and diy ability... by way of example I've recently picked up two (broken) jebao dc6000 pumps... one has a broken impeller and the other a fault with the controller... I paid less than £20 each for them and together they'll easily make one working pump for under £40. New price is more than double that...

For most a 6000 lph dc pump would be a beast of a pump to run as a return... for me it will just be running my 3 stage fluidised reactor!

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

 

[Dugless]

These are older photos as I no longer have stylophoras. The first image is a frag that grew out to a thick dense colony as shown in the second image. The last image shows a small colony grown from a frag, but notice the healthy color and extension of it's underside polyps. Also the growth is symmetrically dense and full. You can't see the skeletal structure because the polyp health is so dense, undersides included. All of these were achieved by proper light provided by high quality MH reflectors.

 

[dz6t]

Lights... hit me...

"Wattage is wattage."

Most good quality LEDS claim to output 2.5 - 3.5 times more lumens per input watt than hot-burning sources like mH. Maybe they lied to me, dunno. Efficiency is also efficiency.

Depend on how they measure the output.
If they integrate total quantum output in a say, 24x24x24 space, led generate in general about 25 to 50% more photon than a good metal halide. But the coverage of led is poor. Most photon are centered around the chip and photon counts rapidly fall off even slightly away from the center.
So a metal halide with good reflector can spread photon more evenly in the same space.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Stolireef]

These are older photos as I no longer have stylophoras. The first image is a frag that grew out to a thick dense colony as shown in the second image. The last image shows a small colony grown from a frag, but notice the healthy color and extension of it's underside polyps. Also the growth is symmetrically dense and full. You can't see the skeletal structure because the polyp health is so dense, undersides included. All of these were achieved by proper light provided by high quality MH reflectors.

I think I would take odds that this growth pattern is influenced as much by flow as light.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

 

[Potatohead]

This is a stylo:

 

[ComforablyNumb]

All of these were achieved by proper light provided by high quality MH reflectors.

Gorgeous! They are beautiful and healthy.

Here are more of mine:

one of 3 sps frags I got 14 months ago:

same frags last month:

Octo 20 months ago:

last month:

All under two kessils only. There's many ways to skin a cat these days. I liked your pics very much tho. Thx for posting.

 

[karimwassef]

I love stylos, they can get wild though

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/4A261F16-3008-4CFA-B046-391D6D9C3977_zps6ftrjkvz.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/4A261F16-3008-4CFA-B046-391D6D9C3977_zps6ftrjkvz.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 4A261F16-3008-4CFA-B046-391D6D9C3977_zps6ftrjkvz.jpg"/></a>

 

[ComforablyNumb]

Very nice. This is turning into the best hijacked thread ever..apologies to OP.

I should note I have no sump on my tank, only a protein skimmer. No other filtration
at all. Two Kessils on controller. I no longer test for anything but alk, 33gal water change every 2 months,
basic IO salt. Same setup and schedule for almost 2 yrs.

Did the bells and whistles for many yrs previously, bad sump seam failure had me thinking more simple for this
tank which I first set up almost 2 yrs ago now, after I moved from Ottawa. My reef, being relatively young,
has really caused me no problems so far, and I am happy with my growth rates. I do however much prefer lps, softies, etc to acro's which I find relatively boring in appearance. That is NOT to slag the beautiful acro dominated tank above and other impressive ones I have seen on this site..at all. They are very impressive..but there's always personal choice and preference that gets mixed into my tanks... rightly or wrongly. And I like them all from blue mushrooms to acros.

If you look closely at the candycane, you will notice about a dozen new heads emerging underneath. Behind the main colony you will see a section I broke off previously...looks like I may doing that again in another few months.

 

[karimwassef]

I prefer combinations. My experience is that each light source has benefits and drawbacks. I use metal halides and LEDs and they each contribute differently. The results are that my corals grow out of the water before I have a chance to prune them.

 

[ComforablyNumb]

The irregular and thin non-branching growth are telling that this stylophora was grown under single point lighting with poor refraction. Stylophora should be thick, dense and for the most part symmetrical. I want natural growth encouraged by proper light spread. Not frankencorals that appear to be growing away or towards a beam of light.

Frankly, I dont really care what you think of my stylo. Frankencoral...really? Its healthy, it grows and there are more than one variant of these corals I would think. All may not, or should not, look identical in my opinion. You prefer more of a flatter rounder appearance..I like them both. Flow may affect how this coral grows too I would think. I have good flow, but I do not blast my corals as the lps seem to react negatively when I do.

Your objection seems more based on personal preference I think...all I can say is to each his own.
Regards, Tim

 

[Ron Reefman]

Jeez... I feel like I've created a monster!! I've been away, got married and the thread continues!

Thanks for all the input... however you do the maths, Leds are the cheaper option over time... and I'm talking about running them for 10 yrs or until they die...

Anyhoo, looks like I've made the choice...

Having done a little research myself and having read everything on here the only consistency is that absolutely no one knows what's the best option for leds... so with that in mind it seems to make complete sense to go with a option that can be changed/ upgraded etc over time... something where the individual lenses and leds could be swapped out easily, where fans could be upgraded etc etc. Also, in order to keep costs down, I'd want something that was relatively cheap in the original outlay, knowing that perhaps the suggested savings in running leds vs others isn't as much as hoped for.

So, after all this, where have I ended up... Chinese black boxes, that's where... before everyone jumps on me for being ignorant (I'm not, I have a degree in biology, specifically human evolution) here are my reasons for why Chinese black boxes (I am talking specifically mars aqua here) are the best reef lighting available:

1. Initial cost - the 300w, 80cm fixture is under £140 delivered.
2. Leds supplied are cheaper epistar... just as good as Cree, but less consistent and with a more variable wavelength... a bonus in my eyes as this surely just provides more light across the spectrum.
3. Future proof... they are simple. You can change just about everything in them, from the fans to the power supply to the leds and lenses, allowing you to upgrade as and when things move forward or when parts inevitably fail.
4. Coverage. I can afford to buy 6 of the 300w units which will cover my tank completely.
5. Par readings are equivalent to the more prestigious brands.
6. Customisable... I will likely swap out the 3500k warm whites with UV leds, which looks simple as far as I can see.
7. Running costs... they are actually about 220w not 300w so are slightly cheaper to run... with not having to swap out bulbs every 6 months or so, running costs over a 10 year period should be less than t5s or mh.
7. UK stock and repairable in UK too.
8. I think they are the best option and I am rarely, if ever, wrong.

So, thanks for all the input. As I said, I think this is such a contentious subject that it doesn't actually matter what I get, people will never agree it's any good, so I'm going with what I think is the best, based on all the really useful info you've all supplied.

Cheers.

I think you've made a sound decision here Gweeds. And I think you will end up quite happy with your decision. Best of luck and I look forward to seeing pics of your system at some point.

The argument... I mean discussion, about t5 vs leds will run for a few more years. About 75% of all new light fixtures sold into the aquarium market are now leds. And don't get me wrong, t5's do have some advantages! But to me, they are just inconsequential to 95% of the reefing community. If, and to me that's still a big if, t5's are really that useful, fixture manufacturers will start making more hybrids with leds and t5's... but I have my doubts.

 

[jayball]

Has there ever been any actual study into the wavelengths of light that the zooxanthellae species within acros actually use to photosynthesise?

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Thanks... fyi 'he' is me


I think the biggest issue here is that we just don't know the wavelengths of light which the zooxanthellae actually use to photosynthesise, if we did then all reef lighting would hit exactly the same nm, but it doesn't... the advantage of t5 is that there is more variance in the wavelength of the light and thus you're more likely to hit the right ones... hopefully by using cheaper leds, this variance will also be evident, to the benefit of the corals.

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We know the absorption spectrum for the chlorophyll and accessory pigments. There are many charts out there, you could likely find some primary sources on Advanced Aquarist.

Edit: A couple links:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peridinin
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chlorophyll
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chlorophyll_a
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chlorophyll_c