Dugless
New member
In my experience, most SPS coral have greater polyp extension in the darker hours. In some cases, nearly twice as much.
Lights... hit me...
- Thread starter Gweeds
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In my experience, most SPS coral have greater polyp extension in the darker hours. In some cases, nearly twice as much.
Dugless
New member
The earth is constantly rotating allowing the single point source to become something much different.
ComforablyNumb
New member
Please be aware what I said above. Advice tends to mirror inventory. The best is always what they own. Are they lying? No, of course not..but if they make more money from one category, THATS the one they push. Its rather easy to spin anything in marketing...and when talking about reef lighting.
This is not settled science and the growth in tech for LEDs is leaps and bounds more exciting than mH and t5. And as the volumes for LEDS increase in all businesses, you should see lower per unit costs going forward. T5 and mH, not so much. Lower and lower volumes, minor adjustments, reflectors, new color bulbs, etc.
Edit..but you will always be stuck with the drawbacks. Bulb changes, excessive heat, triple the electrical costs etc...LED's are not perfect, no lighting system is.
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ComforablyNumb
New member
Is mH single point source constantly moving across your tank? I can program my leds to increase light intensity from left to right during the day between two sources if that is important. Nevermind..I am tired. I will be back tomorrow.
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I would argue that flow plays a larger part in growth form than lighting. (And the pic that started this s-fest came from a LPS heavy tank as he said lower flow). I have taken spindly bird nest mini colony's from low flow and moved them to high flow and in 2 weeks they fill out with multiple growth tips per branch. Same lighting, and similar positioning In relation to the light. (Aside, if you do this do not move it back to the lower flow. It will start dying in short order).
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Can you provide a research paper that corroborates your opinion?
Smart guys like Veron have determined that flow is the main determinant in coral structure. Maybe there is more recent research that supersedes this, but I have not seen this.
Most of the research I've read on coral colouration points to colour expression as a way for a coral to shed unwanted light energy to avoid photo inhibition. Again, if there is something recent that contradicts this, I'd love to read it.
That is one part of it, but there is also lots of diffraction going on in the atmosphere, at the water's surface, as well as reflection off of sandy bottoms (where those exist).
The point is that how light bounces around depends on a number of things.
I'm not arguing that it is not an issue to mitigate, depending on what sort of look you want, but even with LEDs there are things you can do.
That is a good question, but I don't think we have a good answer yet, at least not at the hobby level.
Punchanello
Member
This has been...um...educational. I love a good internet scrag.
I'm mulling over my options like Gweeds so my observations are as a rank novice.
I see very, very few Australian reefers opting for anything but LED. Firstly, the ongoing cost of electricity. It has doubled in the past year and Australia is hot and getting hotter for longer every year. I live in a "temperate" region but we get 40c (107 F) degree days from December to March with average temperatures in the mid to high 30s. High heat producing units hit us twice in power consumption. Also, houses generally aren't that big so hood and large T5 or MH units take up too much space and LED pendants are more popular. Also, the Great Barrier Reef is dying on our doorstep with 2/3rds of it thoroughly beached and we all feel kind of guilty about that and don't want to fuels emissions with our tanks.
My point with all that is that there are factors beyond those usually discussed when comparing lighting. What I see is that most Australian reefers are willing to trade off some of the benefits of MH and T5 in favour of LED for the reasons I mention above.
I'm mulling over my options like Gweeds so my observations are as a rank novice.
I see very, very few Australian reefers opting for anything but LED. Firstly, the ongoing cost of electricity. It has doubled in the past year and Australia is hot and getting hotter for longer every year. I live in a "temperate" region but we get 40c (107 F) degree days from December to March with average temperatures in the mid to high 30s. High heat producing units hit us twice in power consumption. Also, houses generally aren't that big so hood and large T5 or MH units take up too much space and LED pendants are more popular. Also, the Great Barrier Reef is dying on our doorstep with 2/3rds of it thoroughly beached and we all feel kind of guilty about that and don't want to fuels emissions with our tanks.
My point with all that is that there are factors beyond those usually discussed when comparing lighting. What I see is that most Australian reefers are willing to trade off some of the benefits of MH and T5 in favour of LED for the reasons I mention above.
There is no conspiracy at BRS, what they say is proven and works. LED will not and has not come down in price. Every iteration of the major brands is the the same or more expensive than the product it replaces. The Radion G5 will be the same price as the G4 before it. THEY are out to make money.
Of course T5 wont drop in price its mature technology, the adjustments have been made, the reflectors near perfection, the bulbs are made to each grow coral on their own. You're looking at these technologies as if they were both released yesterday. You are right about LED being exciting, thats what sells them, they appeal to tech craving reefers. But there is a big price to pay for that. Remember our conversation about price over time? You need to keep that LED for 5 years before it breaks even. There is no point buying new LED units for the thrill and using efficiency as the motivator.
LED has nowhere to go from lenses and spheres. Its just an LED, a diode that emits light. You cannot make it what it isn't. They've put a lens on it, they've put it inside a sphere, they've put it inside a tube, they've bolted wings onto the sides with more LEDs pointing in the direction a T5 bulbs would shoot light (Maxspect).
T5 has grown more coral than LED has. We know it covers the entire tank from many angles without creating hot spots. LED cannot do that and masses of reefers are now adding T5 to their units to try and compensate. Hell, they've even come up with LEDs in a tube (E5) to try and mimic T5!
I happen to be Aussie. There are no power savings with LED, its a couple of dollars a quarter. For a very long time LED manufacturers pushed power efficiency as the trump card, but its never been realized in practice. If you have a tank that requires 120W over it, that's just what is needs, regardless if its T5 or LED producing it.
The exhaust from my ATI unit sits at 35C, I guess its heating in winter and not much an issue if its 40C ambient in summer.
Most new reefers buy LED because as the previous poster mentioned, they're cool and trendy. A little puck of lights that shimmer, it looks good. But then you have page after page of what spectrum, intensity, height, acclimation do I do/use.
Then there is the price we pay for these. Its a joke. We were up to almost $1300 at launch for a G4 Pro. I got my ATI for $600 shipped from Germany.
karimwassef
Active member
The price of LEDs has nothing to do with the cost of LEDs. They're profit driven.
There's tremendous potential for LEDs to truly be cost effective alternatives, but that won't happen as long as consumers are willing to pay $3000 to light up their tanks. It's just too tempting for the manufacturers.
The technology is willing, but the hunger for profit is weak.
There's tremendous potential for LEDs to truly be cost effective alternatives, but that won't happen as long as consumers are willing to pay $3000 to light up their tanks. It's just too tempting for the manufacturers.
The technology is willing, but the hunger for profit is weak.
ComforablyNumb
New member
I'm sorry, did I say there was? What I said was..everyone can be biased if they so chose. Anyone with a commercial interest in pushing something out the door has a vested interest in pushing things out the door. Is BRS immune to this corporate pressures? I have no idea. What is really required for true judgement is scientific examination when no one involved has a commercial interest in the outcome.
I would tend to disagree. LED's have indeed come down in price, you get many more lumens per dollar than before. You also get programmability. They is a very good reason most municipalities in Canada, and I would assume the US, have switched all street lights to LED. 10 yrs ago, the price was prohibitive..but efficiencies improved, the prices came down, as did payback time (return on investment)..dramatically.
And they also almost always have significant improvements in various things.
Actually if you look at my example, the payback happens before 5 yrs. The led cost was $800, the mH cost +4 yrs bulbs was well over $1,100. Plus the electricity and cooling savings which I did not even factor in.
You say that with more confidence than I would. I have no idea what kind of new efficiencies and engineering will be found with leds in the near future. But I do know what has happened in the recent past. The major innovations and all the growth is coming from LED tech, not the others.
There is no arguing that ..but that would be because its been around for much longer than leds. I would argue that leds will soon, if not already, will be growing more coral than mH and t5 combined. We'll see.
LEDs have effective wide angle (or narrow angle) lens that work quite well. They strongly disperse across a fairly wide angle now. Or you can chose to focus them by purchasing a narrow angle lens model. You have a choice.
Thats exactly the type of thing I was referring to when I said the innovations will mostly come led advancements, not mH or t5.
Good discussion and no one has called anyone a commie here lately. Refreshing.
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ComforablyNumb
New member
You seem to be disregarding fact. Fact is, quality leds now produce 2.5 - 3.5 times as many output lumens per input watt than most other sources like mH.
And they also work well, take up less space, heat up your environment less and cost less to run over 5 yrs.
Interesting. Currently the retail price of EcoTech Marine Radion™ XR30W G4 Pro LED Light Fixture is listed on Fosters for $799. ( http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=34572 ) Free shipping. And $725 on ebay. (https://www.amazon.com/Generation-Ecotech-Marine-Radion-VERSION/dp/B01IEA9HWY) $4.49 shipping.
And didn't you say the price of leds would never come down?
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ComforablyNumb
New member
And didn't you say the price of leds would never come down?
Correct. Top spec Radion/Hydra will always be its current price and will only increase with inflation. There is no reason to pass any savings onto you, if there are any. LEDs aren't new, I'm not sure where you think any savings will be made.
Also, for anyone thinking of buying Chinese LED, you don't save any power by turning them down, they use 1-10v dimming not PWM, you only increase resistance which uses the same power.
Ron Reefman
Active member
Bronx19, please stop comparing everything t5 to the very highest priced led fixtures. That's just BS. A $100 Mars Aqua will light a tank just as good as an $800 Radion. The light isn't different, the optional features for human control is all that's different. And inexpensive t5's don't have most of those high end led benefits. So you are comparing a basic light to a basic light that comes with lots of expensive options. Get serious.
You really need to take a bit more critical look at the BRS video about t5 vs led for light spread. First thing about the BRS video is the t5 is way longer than the led, and the led is a Radion. I know it's thought of as the pinnacle of the led fixtures (which isn't true) and it has 2 small pucks for light right in the middle of the tank. For half the price of the Radion led I could have a 32" led fixture with an array of 100 Cree 3w and 5w leds that are laid out over a 30" x 7" area with 90 degree lenses. The light from that fixture will hit the glass a reflect in way better than the Radion. And if you want more to reflect off the glass, take off the 90 degree lenses and at 120 degrees you'll get lots of spread. Maybe not quite as much as the t5, but WAY more than the Radion. And don't get me wrong here. I'm not saying leds throw light around like t5's. They just don't. But get off your high horse and quit being such a homer for t5. The fact that leds have a couple short comings is way less important to a lot of people than the list of advantages leds have over t5's.
I'd love to see BRS do the same test using what I think is a better led fixture. One that has the leds in an array rather than one using a puck or two.
I'll offer you a challenge. List all the benefits t5's have over leds and then list all the benefits that leds have over t5's. Then allow 10 people to see the lists and I'd wager 7 out of 10 will pick the leds.
You really need to take a bit more critical look at the BRS video about t5 vs led for light spread. First thing about the BRS video is the t5 is way longer than the led, and the led is a Radion. I know it's thought of as the pinnacle of the led fixtures (which isn't true) and it has 2 small pucks for light right in the middle of the tank. For half the price of the Radion led I could have a 32" led fixture with an array of 100 Cree 3w and 5w leds that are laid out over a 30" x 7" area with 90 degree lenses. The light from that fixture will hit the glass a reflect in way better than the Radion. And if you want more to reflect off the glass, take off the 90 degree lenses and at 120 degrees you'll get lots of spread. Maybe not quite as much as the t5, but WAY more than the Radion. And don't get me wrong here. I'm not saying leds throw light around like t5's. They just don't. But get off your high horse and quit being such a homer for t5. The fact that leds have a couple short comings is way less important to a lot of people than the list of advantages leds have over t5's.
I'd love to see BRS do the same test using what I think is a better led fixture. One that has the leds in an array rather than one using a puck or two.
I'll offer you a challenge. List all the benefits t5's have over leds and then list all the benefits that leds have over t5's. Then allow 10 people to see the lists and I'd wager 7 out of 10 will pick the leds.
We're comparing high end T5 to high end LED. I have not compared the ATI to a Chinese LED for good reason. I could simply compare Marsaqua, Ocean Revive to some $50 T5 unit with crap parts. Like for like in the market place.
$100 Marsaqua is equivalent to a Radion? I'll let the Radion boys handle that fight.
I'm glad you know T5 spread is superior to LED, that is all I have been trying to convince Comfor of. He is not a believer, but prefers to bounce light off glass.
T5:
Covers whole tank.
No hot spots.
Plug and play.
Cheap start up.
SPS colouration and growth.
LED:
Dusk/Dawn effects.
Weather effects.
Shimmer.
No bulbs to change.
Small form factor.
