List of devices known to function problematically connected to EB8?
- Thread starter byronsands
- Start date
Landsailor
New member
I think it has something to do with the device not pulling enough current to keep the gate of the triac latched. However, it's been awhile since I've looked into it.
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byronsands
Member
Seeming more & more that a list of problematic connections would be useful...
n2585722
Well-known member
aquamanic,
It is correct. With a pump in this case. When the magnetic field collapses a voltage spike is created in the motor winding. This spike will trigger the triac back on which will recreate the magnetic field. The power is removed again causing this to happen very rapidly. To stop this reaction from happening you just have to dissipate the voltage spike somehow. To do this either use an non inductive load such as a lamp, a line filter or surge protector. If you use a surge protector get one with a 300 volt clamping voltage. The surge protector, filter or load has to be between the device and the power outlet to work. Just plugging the power bar into the protector will not work.
The low wattage devices are more prone to this as they create a higher voltage spike when power is turned off. Even though the voltage is higher than the higher current devices it generates very little current and can be sinked easily.
Since these spikes can get into the system buss it is possible that low power devices turning off can cause other issues with a system. I would suggest using something between the device and the output regardless of the outlet.
There is a demo of a back EMF pulse at the site http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSmMFog10D0.
It is correct. With a pump in this case. When the magnetic field collapses a voltage spike is created in the motor winding. This spike will trigger the triac back on which will recreate the magnetic field. The power is removed again causing this to happen very rapidly. To stop this reaction from happening you just have to dissipate the voltage spike somehow. To do this either use an non inductive load such as a lamp, a line filter or surge protector. If you use a surge protector get one with a 300 volt clamping voltage. The surge protector, filter or load has to be between the device and the power outlet to work. Just plugging the power bar into the protector will not work.
The low wattage devices are more prone to this as they create a higher voltage spike when power is turned off. Even though the voltage is higher than the higher current devices it generates very little current and can be sinked easily.
Since these spikes can get into the system buss it is possible that low power devices turning off can cause other issues with a system. I would suggest using something between the device and the output regardless of the outlet.
There is a demo of a back EMF pulse at the site http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSmMFog10D0.
And that's why this whole low power device/TRIAC thing is most prevalent with powerheads and doing pumps, as I mentioned earlier. What do they have in common? AC motors! They are inductive loads.
Adding a resistive load like a small incandescent lamp is one way to get around it. The surge suppressor trick will help in some cases, not in others.
The issue with small inductive loads can be resolved by adding in a snubber circuit. BUT - as I recall (it's been 30+ years since my electricity/electronics courses) that snubber circuit needs to be tailored for the load... it's not a universal/one-size-fits-all solution. So if Neptune "fixed" it for, say BRS 1.1ml dosing pumps, the "fix" could cause other problems with other devices.
We can beat this to death, but TRIACs have a number of advantages over mechanical relays... the "soft start" feature, silent operation, long life, etc. Neptune gives us both choices... use the outlet type appropriate for the usage. I do think a list is a good idea.... but I think in order for it to be effective, it needs to be something more than a thread of casual reports.... such as thread will undoubtedly get sidetracked, hijacked, derailed, etc. in short order. And as I expressed earlier, reports need to be qualified to an extent... like someone reporting that device ABC works fine but he/she doesnt say with which power strip - EB8 or DC8 (DC8s have different TRIACs, so it makes a difference) - we cannot just assume that just because a post mentions a specific device in conjunction with an Apex, that the power strip in question is an EB8. Plus, we should not forget about all the AC3/AC3pro/ACjr owners out there with DC8s.
Adding a resistive load like a small incandescent lamp is one way to get around it. The surge suppressor trick will help in some cases, not in others.
The issue with small inductive loads can be resolved by adding in a snubber circuit. BUT - as I recall (it's been 30+ years since my electricity/electronics courses) that snubber circuit needs to be tailored for the load... it's not a universal/one-size-fits-all solution. So if Neptune "fixed" it for, say BRS 1.1ml dosing pumps, the "fix" could cause other problems with other devices.
We can beat this to death, but TRIACs have a number of advantages over mechanical relays... the "soft start" feature, silent operation, long life, etc. Neptune gives us both choices... use the outlet type appropriate for the usage. I do think a list is a good idea.... but I think in order for it to be effective, it needs to be something more than a thread of casual reports.... such as thread will undoubtedly get sidetracked, hijacked, derailed, etc. in short order. And as I expressed earlier, reports need to be qualified to an extent... like someone reporting that device ABC works fine but he/she doesnt say with which power strip - EB8 or DC8 (DC8s have different TRIACs, so it makes a difference) - we cannot just assume that just because a post mentions a specific device in conjunction with an Apex, that the power strip in question is an EB8. Plus, we should not forget about all the AC3/AC3pro/ACjr owners out there with DC8s.
n2585722
Well-known member
This will fix the most stubborn devices but it is expensive. http://www.homedepot.com/buy/electr...rlinc-plug-in-noise-filter-10-amp-157561.html
l8_apex_it
New member
I've been known to use a small incandescent bulb (low wattage) typically for bathroom nightlights and run that in parallel. That seems to work and is cheap. Just put it out of sight so you aren't bothered by flashing haha.
Yikes! For the cost of 3 plus tax and shipping, you could just about buy an EB4
byronsands
Member
Russ, where did you get those little colorful pigtails?"outlet saver" pigtail with a tiny embedded LED (like the pic below), does work 100% reliably for me.
Walmart. Even if they don't help with the TRIAC thing, they are incredibly useful for connecting wall warts to a power strip. Inexpensive too.
DC motors are generally only used in higher quality fixed-speed pumps and variable speed pumps. AC motors are usually cheaper and smaller than comparable DC motors. Budget-priced powerheads like the Koralias are purely AC. Even the "low voltage" controllable Koralias have AC motors. Similarly, BRS dosers are all AC... not even a wall-wart; just a power cord on them. Except for my Vortechs, no powerhead or small pump I ever had (Seio, Koralia, MJ, Rio, Sedra, Sicce, etc.) had a power supply of any sort - they simply ran on 120VAC.
Being bored out of my mind while sidelined by an injury, I gave this list thing some (more) serious thought. (It only hurts when I laugh - or walk, run, sit, stand, or sleep - but I'll be fine in a couple of days, and I *can* still think and type.)
So, boys and girls.. as the saying goes, "Be careful what you wish for - you just might get it."
I've created a new feature on Reeftronics: the framework for a user-submitted database of equipment compatibility with TRIAC-switched outlets in Neptune EB8, DC8, and DA PC-4 powerbars. Or if you prefer trendy Internet buzzwords, let's call it a crowd-sourced database.
The database can be sorted by device category, manufacturer, model, and more.
I'm going to see how it goes for a few weeks - since it relies on user submissions, if the database grows to my satisfaction in that timeframe, I'll keep it going. If there are not enough entries made by other people, I'll just kill the whole thing. Likewise, if I see too many bogus entries, I'll abandon the project. So, I'm counting on *YOU* to keep it alive. I got it started with a few entries.
Check it out at http://www.reeftronics.net, on the right sidebar entitled Tools. And please make a contribution to the database while you are there!
The data is based on YOUR experience.... so even if a given device is already in the database, go a head and submit your experience.... the more data, the better!
I welcome any suggestions for improvement, such as additional device categories, and ideas for other columns which could be added.
So, boys and girls.. as the saying goes, "Be careful what you wish for - you just might get it."
I've created a new feature on Reeftronics: the framework for a user-submitted database of equipment compatibility with TRIAC-switched outlets in Neptune EB8, DC8, and DA PC-4 powerbars. Or if you prefer trendy Internet buzzwords, let's call it a crowd-sourced database.
The database can be sorted by device category, manufacturer, model, and more.
I'm going to see how it goes for a few weeks - since it relies on user submissions, if the database grows to my satisfaction in that timeframe, I'll keep it going. If there are not enough entries made by other people, I'll just kill the whole thing. Likewise, if I see too many bogus entries, I'll abandon the project. So, I'm counting on *YOU* to keep it alive. I got it started with a few entries.
Check it out at http://www.reeftronics.net, on the right sidebar entitled Tools. And please make a contribution to the database while you are there!
The data is based on YOUR experience.... so even if a given device is already in the database, go a head and submit your experience.... the more data, the better!
I welcome any suggestions for improvement, such as additional device categories, and ideas for other columns which could be added.
Last edited:
byronsands
Member
thanks, Russ... and I hope you recover quickly...
byronsands
Member
you already entered the BRS 1.1mL dosing pumps that I experienced so far.
I may take a bit for folks to realize the data base exists. I appreciate you creating it.
I may take a bit for folks to realize the data base exists. I appreciate you creating it.
byronsands
Member
btw, I can find those anywhere... maybe I'm just bad at searching. Didn't find anything on the Walmart site either
http://www.walmart.com/ip/Woods-8-16-3-SPT-2-Adapter-Cord-White-3pk/16489603btw, I can find those anywhere... maybe I'm just bad at searching. Didn't find anything on the Walmart site either
http://www.cablestogo.com/product.asp?cat_id=1020&sku=29803
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