MH vs LED POWER CONSUMPTION

[Anemonebuff]

This posted was started with a actual observation.
12 LED's 1 Driver consumes 1.5 Amps = 154 Watts
1 MH 250 Watt consumes 2.4 Amps = 264 Watts

I was told by major suppliers here that I will need at least 2 X 12 LED set to match a 250W MH.

This being said, the power consumption of LED is more than MH lighting.
Bulb replacement logic is meaning less, Solaris company also said LED bulbs last 10,000 Hours, how many have actually tested this? I'm not denying this, but I'm not buying this number straight off either. I don't believe LED's are maintenance free.

Have you ever touch a LED? see how hot it gets? Heat = energy wasted, if LED's are so very efficient why do you have to use heat sinks?

For a larger system, it costs more to run LED set up than MH in respect to power utilization. If you have 1, plug in your Kill-o-Watt & test this out. Support your numbers with some base.

By the way, the OP is my buddy who helped me set up LED Actinic suppliment lighting for my MH & I Love it. It is just not a cost effective reason to go LED's.

1st, 12 LEDs(assuming 3 watt LEDs) run at max power along with the driver would use about 40 watts. However, most under drive the LEDs at 2-2.4 watts each. So let's say that the LEDs are using 36 watts per 12 LED panel. Two of those would be 72 watts(like one AI module does). The AI's give PAR closer to a 400 watt bulb and use only 72 watt.

2nd., LEDs get hot, but nowhere near as hot as MHs. Touching a 175 watt MH bulb will give you at minimum 2nd degree burns. I can hold my hands on my PAR38s for a long time and it is just warm to the touch. We only use heatsinks to wisk away the heat from the diodes because they are heat sensitive and heat reduces the diode life.

 

[tangstank]

So many holes I don't know where to start. 12 3 watt LEDs is no where near 154 watts!!! Do you own a calculator? I would suggest getting one they come in handy for these complex calculations. All lights produce heat that corresponds with the watts pulled and LEDs pull less than other lighting sources

Hmmm, seems like someone gave you false info. Almost all the leds in use today are of the 3 watt variety. 3 x 12 = 36 watts and not even close to 154 as you say. Sure there are some losses and such but at most, a 12 led system will consume 40 watts. My Maxspec unit has 36 3 watt lights in it and is rated at 110 watts.

All right, now let's see who needs a calculator or basic knowledge in Ohm's law.
Attached is the picture of driver used for 12 LED's. It says clearly input 1.1 amps. => 121 watts.

I connected an Amp meter in series to power input, the amp meter read 1.4 Amps which is the power consumed by the driver to drive 12 LED's.

Now I connected kill-o-watt, the current consumed is 1.4 Amps.

I tried the power consumption from Apex unit for the LED driver outlet it reads 1.4 Amps.

All this reading is equivalent to 154 watts.

Now please suggest do I need a calculator or you need some basic knowledge in Electricity. I have my masters degree in Electrical engineering to support my postings.

 

[karsseboom]

1st, 12 LEDs(assuming 3 watt LEDs) run at max power along with the driver would use about 40 watts. However, most under drive the LEDs at 2-2.4 watts each. So let's say that the LEDs are using 36 watts per 12 LED panel. Two of those would be 72 watts(like one AI module does). The AI's give PAR closer to a 400 watt bulb and use only 72 watt.

2nd., LEDs get hot, but nowhere near as hot as MHs. Touching a 175 watt MH bulb will give you at minimum 2nd degree burns. I can hold my hands on my PAR38s for a long time and it is just warm to the touch. We only use heatsinks to wisk away the heat from the diodes because they are heat sensitive and heat reduces the diode life.

My 175 watt mh dont produce any heat to the tank at all. Hot to the touch yes, but does it rasie the temp in the tank? not at all. Im running 2 heaters in my tank just to keep the temp at 79, the 500 watts of heaters cost me more than running the mh...leds are not worth the extra money if you already have lighting that works..

 

[reefkeeps]

I did the math, and I'm somewhat anal about new technology claims, I don't see how I couldn't break even over 3 years, almost 2 years.

Funny, the amount I expect to save between the two lights is a VERY small portion of the overall savings, what I'll saving by not running my air at 72 degrees and my chiller kicking on 12 times a day is FAR more impressive. I have mine on order....

 

[tangstank]

By the way, the power feed to LED's (Output of the driver is DC). The driver output is 700mA (0.7 Amps) at 48V DC
Simple calculations:
48V * 0.7 Amps = 33.6 Watts (Which is just close to run 12 X 3 Watt LED's => 36 Watts)
Consider Impedance of the LED's & we are running the driver at full output capacity.

Get your facts straight: 12 X 3 Watt LED consume 36 Watts from Driver output. In order to regulate & step down 110V AC to 48 V DC, considering transformer impedance, the driver consumes > 1.1 Amps.

I can't make thing clearer than this, all I'm trying to say here is don't be gullible with marketing numbers & don't assume, verify numbers & get facts straight.

 

[reefkeeper2]

I had two marisar fixtures (2x250watt halide and 2 x39watt t5 each) and four 50 watt finnex t5 fixtures that hung over my 427gal reef. I replaced them with 10 AI Sol Blue units. My electric bill fell 70.00!
When I installed the AI units, I also insulated the sump completely because I knew the heaters would be running a lot more. I am very happy with the results.
I must confess, I love the look of the tank so much more now that I would do it all over again even if the energy savings were not there.

 

[James77]

All right, now let's see who needs a calculator or basic knowledge in Ohm's law.
Attached is the picture of driver used for 12 LED's. It says clearly input 1.1 amps. => 121 watts.

I connected an Amp meter in series to power input, the amp meter read 1.4 Amps which is the power consumed by the driver to drive 12 LED's.

Now I connected kill-o-watt, the current consumed is 1.4 Amps.

I tried the power consumption from Apex unit for the LED driver outlet it reads

Watts= volts x amps. They are being driven at 48 volts according to the label.

 

[tangstank]

Watts= volts x amps. They are being driven at 48 volts according to the label.

James, not sure what you are trying to say here? is my calculation confusing you or you find it wrong?

If it is confusing to you please read my post #45
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=18519597&postcount=45

 

[James77]

Iwas thinking you were misfiguring by not using the 48 volts in the output, but now unjust got myself all confused. I'm going to blame it on being on an iPhone, and I'll check it out and un-confuse myself when I get home

 

[tangstank]

what kind of garbage mh bulbs are you buying for $2x a piece?


Again, tangstank, look at your math. Assuming they are 3w LED's, 12 of them is most certainly NOT 154 watts. I mean, did you honestly believe what you posted?

Many fixtures now are using 1w LED's which obviously use even less power.

I can't believe this is even being argued, there are so many posts about this already that anyone doubting the electricity savings is cuckoo.

Oh, and if you put together your own fixture, you're saving a ton over an AI or other good fixture.

1st, 12 LEDs(assuming 3 watt LEDs) run at max power along with the driver would use about 40 watts. However, most under drive the LEDs at 2-2.4 watts each. So let's say that the LEDs are using 36 watts per 12 LED panel. Two of those would be 72 watts(like one AI module does). The AI's give PAR closer to a 400 watt bulb and use only 72 watt.

2nd., LEDs get hot, but nowhere near as hot as MHs. Touching a 175 watt MH bulb will give you at minimum 2nd degree burns. I can hold my hands on my PAR38s for a long time and it is just warm to the touch. We only use heatsinks to wisk away the heat from the diodes because they are heat sensitive and heat reduces the diode life.

Show me some evidence to post your facts like I have done. Simply assuming or calling out does not prove your point. Have you tried connecting a Kill-o-watt to your LED Driver input? If yes post what it reads & we can have a knowledgeable discussion.
By the way a Kill-o-watt is
http://www.amazon.com/P3-Internatio...F29Q/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1300663258&sr=8-1
in case you don't have 1 already.

 

[tangstank]

Check this youtube link from King Of Queens a comedy TV series.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fu9vR2XdprA

This is exactly how some of you are basing your argument. :rollface:

 

[Tenor]

Some of you maybe confusing the heat between LED and MH. The heat of LED is transfer to the back of it base and into the heatsink back of the LED and can cool down by a little fan, no heat transfer into the fish tank. For this reason, tank temperature is very stable and depend where you lived, you may not need to buy a chiller even in the summer like where I'm living in ventura county, CA.
The MH is created most of the heat that transfer direct into your fish tank and for that reason most the tank need chiller when used MH.

Now, The most people switched from MH or T5 to LED like me because of we tried to save money from electric bill from the light+chiller and also from buying bulb every 6 or 9 months.

 

[Anemonebuff]

Show me some evidence to post your facts like I have done. Simply assuming or calling out does not prove your point. Have you tried connecting a Kill-o-watt to your LED Driver input? If yes post what it reads & we can have a knowledgeable discussion.
By the way a Kill-o-watt is
http://www.amazon.com/P3-Internatio...F29Q/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1300663258&sr=8-1
in case you don't have 1 already.

I use PAR38s and they use 17 to 18 watts each on a Kill a watt. I do not use drivers. From what I have seen posted by someone here that their AI at full power registered 80 watts on a kill a watt. It uses 3 watt LEDs slightly under driven. I cannot say what a DIY LED system draws.

 

[James77]

Tangstank- how many watts doesthe kill a watt say it is drawing when you run that driver?

 

[Anemonebuff]

All right, now let's see who needs a calculator or basic knowledge in Ohm's law.
Attached is the picture of driver used for 12 LED's. It says clearly input 1.1 amps. => 121 watts.

I connected an Amp meter in series to power input, the amp meter read 1.4 Amps which is the power consumed by the driver to drive 12 LED's.

Now I connected kill-o-watt, the current consumed is 1.4 Amps.

I tried the power consumption from Apex unit for the LED driver outlet it reads 1.4 Amps.

All this reading is equivalent to 154 watts.

Now please suggest do I need a calculator or you need some basic knowledge in Electricity. I have my masters degree in Electrical engineering to support my postings.

What does the kill a watt say in watts?

Last time I checked my meter is read in KWHs used not amps.

 

[jwoyshnar]

I dont have a masters but i do have an associates degree in Eletronics. Very well put. Alot of people are going by the output of the driver which as you state its power drawn from the input. Thanks for posting it so clearly.

All right, now let's see who needs a calculator or basic knowledge in Ohm's law.
Attached is the picture of driver used for 12 LED's. It says clearly input 1.1 amps. => 121 watts.

I connected an Amp meter in series to power input, the amp meter read 1.4 Amps which is the power consumed by the driver to drive 12 LED's.

Now I connected kill-o-watt, the current consumed is 1.4 Amps.

I tried the power consumption from Apex unit for the LED driver outlet it reads 1.4 Amps.

All this reading is equivalent to 154 watts.

Now please suggest do I need a calculator or you need some basic knowledge in Electricity. I have my masters degree in Electrical engineering to support my postings.

 

[reefergeorge]

I went from 4x54 watt t5s 216 watts
to 50 cree leds that pull 118 watts on the watt meter. In MO electricity is cheap, but changing the 4 T5s was $140 every nine months. Leds will hopefully last over five years if built correctly.

 

[nanojg]

Wow, what school did you get that degree from? Are you sure it's an electrical engineering degree??? No where near 154 watts!!!

All right, now let's see who needs a calculator or basic knowledge in Ohm's law.
Attached is the picture of driver used for 12 LED's. It says clearly input 1.1 amps. => 121 watts.

I connected an Amp meter in series to power input, the amp meter read 1.4 Amps which is the power consumed by the driver to drive 12 LED's.

Now I connected kill-o-watt, the current consumed is 1.4 Amps.

I tried the power consumption from Apex unit for the LED driver outlet it reads 1.4 Amps.

All this reading is equivalent to 154 watts.

Now please suggest do I need a calculator or you need some basic knowledge in Electricity. I have my masters degree in Electrical engineering to support my postings.

 

[Anemonebuff]

My 175 watt mh dont produce any heat to the tank at all. Hot to the touch yes, but does it rasie the temp in the tank? not at all. Im running 2 heaters in my tank just to keep the temp at 79, the 500 watts of heaters cost me more than running the mh...leds are not worth the extra money if you already have lighting that works..

Then your MHs are magical. I had 3x175 watt halides and they not only added 2+ degrees(depending on the season) to the tank, they also added a ton of heat to the room the tank was in. This caused me to run my A/C to make the room bearable to sit in. It sounds like you run your tank in a very cool place. Even in a cool room the MHs are transferring heat to the tank and the room. The only issue you have is changing bulbs every 9-12 months. My 300 watt heater goes on a little more in winter, but the light change for me was from 605 watts MH down to 125 watts LED. Even if my heaters ran the whole time my LEDs are on I am still ahead of the game.

 

[nanojg]

Basic electrical knowledge: watts = amps x volts...now use that calculator I suggested!!!