Mineral mud/Miracle Mud

I have Walt Smith's Fiji Mud in my display refugium.
1.5"-2" deep, no sand on top. MP40 providing flow in the tank, along with the return from my chiller. It does take a while for the silt to settle and you don't want to go touching/poking it, but other than that it's fine.
The problem with this stuff is unless you are running exact twins of the same tank, expect for mud in one and not in the other, you'll never know if it's of any benefit.

20140508_5080017_200gReef.jpg
 
I ran the mud only system for about a year and it did seem to work very good for me. however when it came time to change the mud after a year it made such a mess and was such a pain in the u know what ,that I removed it and never looked back. I would love to try it again someday when I have a lot more time.
 
d2mini said:
I have Walt Smith's Fiji Mud in my display refugium.
1.5"-2" deep, no sand on top. MP40 providing flow in the tank, along with the return from my chiller. It does take a while for the silt to settle and you don't want to go touching/poking it, but other than that it's fine.
The problem with this stuff is unless you are running exact twins of the same tank, expect for mud in one and not in the other, you'll never know if it's of any benefit.

20140508_5080017_200gReef.jpg
Click to expand...

Beautiful Dennis.
 
d2mini said:
We've also been told since the 1950's that saturated fat is bad for us and soy/tofu is good for us. :headwalls:
Click to expand...

Well there's a good reason for that.

The agricultural revolution was such a huge source of tax revenue for the government that the FDA, USDA and the grain manufacturers all got together to see how they could increase sales or maintain them. They came up with the food pyramid. Nothing increases sales like making something seem mandatory.
 
Look into the creator's recommendation for the mud's use. You need small baffles to keep the mud in place. It needs relatively high flow. Its also used for a specific purpose. Nitrification AND denitrification. It creates a balanced system from the start, and yes, it can cause algae blooms in established systems. It re-balances systems, temporarily causing some preexisting problems to become apparent.
As far as causing a mud storm in the tank, I think if we follow the directions this will not be much of an issue.
Daniel.
 
The Miracle here is that people still buy it after all these years. Two separate individual elemental analysis of the product showed what it actually is, and it isn't even of oceanic origin.

If you are curious what is in it, follow the links, it should help people decide if they want to blindly follow a marketing ploy.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...igxK0N&usg=AFQjCNGY8kPuddJ-YrSPVa_vDW_zJHRfUw

The conclusions pretty much tell the story.

"The analysis indicates that Miracle Mud is 30% silicon. This mostly likely exists in Miracle Mud as silicon dioxide, which is most commonly found in nature as quartz. As pointed out by chemist Randy Holmes-Farley, the molecular weight of silicon makes up less than half the molecular weight of silicon dioxide. So if the silicon present is all in the form of silicon dioxide, then Miracle Mud is more than 63% quartz sand. This seems to be confirmed by the photos.

The high levels of metals (especially Aluminum, Iron and Titanium) are also a point of concern.

In addition, no traces of any marine sediment were found in any microscopic examination - no oolitic sand grains, no shell fragments, no diatoms or any other remnants of marine life. An acid test...indicates that no carbonates are present in Miracle Mud. It is difficult to reconcile these facts with the manufacturer's claim that "Miracle Mud is 80% oceanic mud."

The product can have legitimate uses, such as a Seagrass bed where the iron in it can be beneficial. For a reef tank, the value may be significantly less. The stories you hear of people claiming results from using it are amusing. It is a safe bet that they would have the same results if they had not used it, their husbandry is responsible for their success, not a "miracle". Many people who used it for years noted no difference in the health of their system after removing it. This makes sense as the product is mostly quartz.

Use it if it makes you feel like you are gaining some advantage from it, but consider that only the people selling it have the advantage, they got your money and provided you with virtually nothing beneficial.

Randy, I know you have helped debunk and take the mystery out of a lot of products over the years, (thank you for that) I don't remember your participation on any discussions of the product back when the analysis were done, my mind is getting feeble. Do you concur with the conclusions presented from those two elemental analysis?
 
Yep, read it.. Pretty Weak sauce! Not really much there. Just an analysis of the composition followed by an obviously bias guess at the origin of the different elements. From browsing the website, it seems apparent that most of it has been neglected. Lots of outdated info that hasn't been updated in years. The authors interpretation of his findings are in direct opposition to the product's creators, and the company that manufactures it. Like I said. Yes, it has been known to cause problems in established tanks, but only if a serious problem is already present and is just being compensated for by an imbalance elsewhere in the system. Follow the manufacturers directions in a new tank and the effect will only be positive.
In the end it's up to each of us. Theirs no one right or wrong way to do this as long as it produces results we are satisfied with, and I am.
Daniel. :wildone:
BTW. If you read it. "The conclusion"starts with an assumption and then builds off it. I.E. 30% turns to 63%, which then goes off in a different direction, and then settles on a conclusion that is based off a guess. That's not very smart if you want to "debunk" something. I would guess the manufacturer just shrugged this off as the usual bad press from people that bash everything they don't take the time to understand.
 
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The manufacturers unsubstantiated claims are biased because they stand to make a heavy profit selling this stuff.

There are a bunch of different ways to run a reef tank, you just need to find one that works for you. Corals and fish don't survive in our tanks because of miracles, they survive due to salt mix that has the proper balance of salts to match the ocean as close as possible. A few of them that are depleted rapidly are ones we can easily test for. You dose to compensate for uptake. Nothing more is needed other than keeping the salts in proper balance, adequate lighting, and adequate surface area for bacteria to operate the nitrogen cycle. You can dose this or that bottle but the end result is often just a loss money.

Diatoms feed off silicates and for this reason alone I cannot see adding this stuff to one of my systems. What real use does it have? Why have countless people used blood/sweat/tears and not needed a miracle to produce incredible systems? So what if it even does something at all... its 2014 and we don't need to guess about the things our critters need to survive.

This is what they claim to be in MM, they give no concentrations.
Aluminum, antimony, barium, beryllium, bismuth, boron, bromine, cadmium, calcium, cerium, cesium, chromium, chloride, cobalt, dysprosium, erbium, europium, fluorine, gadolinium, gallium, germanium, gold, hafnium, holmium, indium, iodine, iridium, iron, lanthanum, lithium, lutetium, magnesium, manganese, molybdenum, neodymium, nickel, niobium, osmium, palladium, phosphorus, platinum, potassium, praseodymium, rhodium, rubidium, ruthenium, rhenium, samarium, selenium, silicon, silver, sodium, strontium, sulfur, tantalum, tellurium, terbium, thallium, thorium, thulium, tin, titanium, tungsten, vanadium, ytterbium, yttrium, zinc, zirconium.
Click to expand...

This is what is in salt mixes. One thing you will notice is a lot of stuff is really low in natural salt water but high in artificial salt water. These often come as impurities in the salt mix and are not actually beneficial.
14026517838_3ea38056e3_o.jpg


I don't see how using a product that claims to reverse all these problems for a cost makes sense when the same stuff is already abundant in the salt mix. Do they not have enough of it already in the salt mix? Is this miracle something that we somehow have forgotten or overlooked? Actual testing shows otherwise.
 
"Miracle" is just a name guys. Don't read too much into it. You're just making fun now. Not really doing anything for your argument.:debi:
The mud is designed to be a DSB without the need for the deep part. It settles to a dense bed with multiple layers for bacteria to propagate. The top layer helps break down the first chemicals in the cycle. The bottom layers act as a hypoxic zone, breaking down nitrates without the risk of hydrogen sulfide. It gives the benefit of a deep sand bed with the added benefit of constantly replenishing trace elements. The stuff is designed not to need constant water changes to replenish these elements. It's designed for a specific use, not for all systems. Do your research, follow directions, and decide for yourself if this is a method you wish to use. Proper use will save the user money within the margins of its design.
The idea in a nutshell is this. For an aquarist who wants to keep a tank without constant water changes to replenish trace elements that are used up. Proper husbandry will mitigate the need for water changes to remove excess nutrients.
The end of it comes down to this. It's a specific style of reefkeeping. Use it or not, if you follow the recommended method, your tank and livestock will benefit. Their are many different styles or methods This is only one of them.
Choose your path.
Daniel. :wildone:
 
You may call it bashing, but in reality it is warning people that they are being sold something that is claimed to be one thing, but independent analysis shows it to be the opposite. The results people get while using it would be exactly the same as they would get without using it, it is called good husbandry, not a miracle product.
 
Yet it still shows zero evidence of oceanic origin, which is the main issue with it, a simple water change replenishes what uour tank may be missing and it is lot cheaper and more beneficial. Placebos work because people believe it will work. If your belief is it is MM, then be happy, but understand that does mean it is responsible for doing anything that you would not already be doing.

If you did read all of those threads, you would see how many people noticed zero difference after removing the mud, ever wonder why that might be?
 
I don't like going around a block, it seems redundant, I prefer to go from block to block, you learn more when you see a variety of things. I wouldn't dream of trying to change your mind, it is for those who only get marketed to that need a different opinion. Differences of opinion is where learning comes from, not from agreeing. :beer:
 
I am certain you will, it is mportant for people to see all sides, not just the side of a master marketer. That report like many things of the past in this hobby get forgotten, those of us who remeber should keep it out in the open, not let them be forgotten.

Did you notice your link left out the pics and the rest of the conclusions, it is called a spin, which is designed to take the good from the report and leave out the bad. Why is the conclusion not stated in it's entirety? It is called misdirection and misinformation.
 
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