bhazard451
New member
I like both for different reasons. I'm ok with either one.
Minimalistic multichip DIY LED build
- Thread starter maglofster
- Start date
I like both for different reasons. I'm ok with either one.
FYI: More heatsinking options on the horizon. Looks good! For the multichip DIY crowd, this is great!
https://picasaweb.google.com/103048473220054692919/August62012?authuser=0&feat=directlink
https://picasaweb.google.com/103048473220054692919/August62012?authuser=0&feat=directlink
My attempt at cooling for a 50W chip over a rimless tank. The cooler is made by Arctic Cooling. It's their Accelero L2 Plus. They also sell a low profile 200W version that would look great over a rimless tank as well:
If you have any questions, let me know:
https://picasaweb.google.com/103048473220054692919/Gooseneck?authuser=0&feat=directlink
If you have any questions, let me know:
https://picasaweb.google.com/103048473220054692919/Gooseneck?authuser=0&feat=directlink
1st color configuration: The "Dream Ratio": (This will not change)
1) 20 x 10000K
2) 20 x 455nm
3) 10 x 420nm, 10 x 430nm
4) 20 x 445nm
5) 20 x 15000K
2nd color configuration (We'll let this one ferment for another day)
1) 20 x 5500K (with a red emphasis)
2) 10 x 445nm, 10 x 455nm
3) 20 x 14000K
4) 20 x 420nm
5) 20 x 10000K
1) 20 x 10000K
2) 20 x 455nm
3) 10 x 420nm, 10 x 430nm
4) 20 x 445nm
5) 20 x 15000K
2nd color configuration (We'll let this one ferment for another day)
1) 20 x 5500K (with a red emphasis)
2) 10 x 445nm, 10 x 455nm
3) 20 x 14000K
4) 20 x 420nm
5) 20 x 10000K
mr.wilson
.Registered Member
Dimming the 5 channels will not have a significant difference as the blues are in the less visible category and the 3300 & 5500k chips are very dominant. If you are running these at 250w, there is room for dimming, but at 100w, you are already at the intensity you need for a 24" tall tank.
You are better off picking the right chip mix in the first place and use dimming to fine tune it to each individuals taste. Keep in mind, you can't simply add up the total kelvins of the three white chips and divide by three. The low kelvin whites will dominate human vision and perception.
The 3300K and 5500k will be heavy in green light which will promote nuisance algae and mask your colourful corals with brown zooxanthellae. There is a reason why 3300k light has never been used in the reef hobby and 5500k bulbs were retired in the early 1990's once 10,000k became available.
You can't look at the colour temperature as "more blue" or "more red". It's more about how much green is present. These chips all start out as blue and specific phosphors are added to make them more red or more green, particularly the latter.
If anyone is concerned about seeing the final product before you make a $10,000.00 group buy, order one sample with just one colour channel. Alternatively, you could set up a T5 fixture with the same mix.
I can point you to any number of LED builds that use warm and neutral whites. I can show you several commercial fixtures that incorporate these as well. They all happen to be the ones I've found most pleasing to the eye as well.
And while I dont plan on driving these anywhere near 250 watts it does leave significant room for adjustment IMO. I can also show you three different 5000K LEDs that have very different spectra. I could do the same with MH.
sfsuphysics
Active member
Yikes, not digging either of those plots. The 6000K chip looks similar to the CW Cree output... in fact it looks almost identical as far as what percentage of total intensity at various wavelengths (i.e. it's almost devoid of all red hues).
And that 3100K chip? In what universe? That looks like a yellow emitter with a touch of blue thrown in as an afterthought... 3000K is dominately red in nature which that spectra is definitely not.
Well I'm going to quietly bow out of this whole process as I don't see anything that could do what I'd like. I understand the voltage issue with red LEDs, and those other chips don't seem to be able to fill in the void at all. I do however appreciate the effort that you've been making to get this thing working as a reality.
FYI: Didn't know you had to log into google to see the pictures (For others who had issues)
bhazard451
New member
I have 3300k and 5500k Cree leds right now over my tank, and it looks fantastic. It looks much better than any Cree/Bridgelux/Epistar Cool White led dominated fixture ever could, and the colors are more prominent than ever before.
A 250w 3300k MH bulb and the 6 3300k leds I use are wildly different. You never had the ability to dedicate 20w of your 250w bulb to only one color temp before, so its a bit strange to try to compare them that way now.
If I wanted to stick with 90's tech, I wouldn't be in this thread and I'd still have my old MH fixture running.
Speaking of nuisance algae, run your royal blue channels only for 2-3 days, and then run your algae promoting ones with them for 2-3 days. The algae growth is the same, not even a noticeable difference. My tank would be an algae farm right now if that were true, or if I only wanted 100w of 3300k over my tank. If you have the excess nutrients, you are going to grow algae regardless, unless you keep the tank in total darkness.
bhazard451
New member
You have a good point. There are just way too many variables to commit to 100+ of these chips without testing a sample. I thought the 3100k looked off.
BeanAnimal
Premium Member
Lasse, that is my point. You do not appear to want to acknowledge the context that many of us are posting from, because you don't have a desire for the spectral diversity we are looking for. You may not see a "need" but we do. We are talking about coming up with a chip that can be tuned for decent growth AND color appeal, from a single "point source". I don't want RGB chips in my design, or a skylight in my roof or any other means of deriving other colors. I simply looking to mimic the spectral diversity of many of newer 3W designs that suffer from "disco" and uneven color rendering by using a single multi-chip point source.
Nobody here has impugned your experience or observations. In fact, they have been quite valuable. However, you have clearly refused acknowledge the utility that some of us see in a broadly variable point source, to the point that several of your responses have been somewhat obtuse and/or narrow.
While you may not see utility in a variable light source, many of us do. Now can we please get on with discussing the best way to go about leveraging a single multi-chip to get a reasonable result?
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BeanAnimal
Premium Member
Assuming the T5s have reasonably the same phosphors?
I think part of the problem is that we have no idea how the light from the phosphors in each range will interact. I think Jerpa has ordered some 10W chips to at least mix and match to see if we can come up with a good base schema.
In fact, maybe we do need to get one of "each" of ac-rc color bins shipped and play with them (at least us folks who want the wide range of emitters).
Thoughts?
Well I have a 6500K, 10k, & 14k on the way in the 20w Epistar version. That's a starting point though I may need to pick up a 3000K or 5000K as well. It's a shame the 10w are all Epileds. They'd be half the price. I think once we've seen those it would give us an idea if it would look anywhere near what we are thinking.
I am going to have one odd refugium light before this is over.
Is there any chance of getting a prototype at a higher price, within reason of course. It may be wise to look into the individual colors then order a prototype. I would have a hard time buying all the chips necessary for my system based on an unproven design. If enough people are interested anyway I'd be willing to try one even if I wasn't so confident.
I am going to have one odd refugium light before this is over.
Is there any chance of getting a prototype at a higher price, within reason of course. It may be wise to look into the individual colors then order a prototype. I would have a hard time buying all the chips necessary for my system based on an unproven design. If enough people are interested anyway I'd be willing to try one even if I wasn't so confident.
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sfsuphysics: I agree with you on the spectral plots for those low K emitters - the 15000k has more red in it! Hopefully we can get some plots for the red emphasis type of emitters.
Someone erroneously mentioned that no-one ever used 3300k over a reef tank, and I have to differ.. It used to be believed that only HPS could grow corals, back in the 60s and 70s.
edit: Here's a thought, if we get a chip with say 10000k "regular" and 15000k red-emphasis you'd have increased flexibility in the final tone.
Someone erroneously mentioned that no-one ever used 3300k over a reef tank, and I have to differ.. It used to be believed that only HPS could grow corals, back in the 60s and 70s.
edit: Here's a thought, if we get a chip with say 10000k "regular" and 15000k red-emphasis you'd have increased flexibility in the final tone.
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Lassef
Member
The point I try to give you is that I don´t think it is possible to achive the thing you want with adding low Kelvin sources that are multispectral. (now I mean to create all of these light effects) This is of different reasons. One reason is that the K temperature in a chip is depending on current. If you dim through lowering the current you get a change in the Kelvin temperature from your chip, normally lower. Only true PWM dimmers (with true I mean that they use PWM out to the chip - not only into the driver and current lowering out to the chip as many of Meanwells drivers do) has to some extent the same K independently of dimming. There is also a lot of different wavelenghts that will interact in many different ways with each other and your monochrome sources depending of intensity of the sources.
I believe instead that one must work with monochromatic sources, that is only one color (wavelength) per LED. Minimum requirements are RGB, that is, three monochrome sources, one red, one green and one blue. Using these one can obtain any Kelvin temperature you want. To get a good color rendering it will probably also need other monochromatic sources, ie, monochrome LED.
Once again I´m only talking about how to achive different light effects, nothing else.
To understand the other question about the "blue disease" I have to ask you how old you are? Not to insult you but because it is a fact that older people like myself (62) do not perceive blue light very well. At high K, we see a crispy white light, while younger people may well see the blue wavelengths, and therefore perceive that there is a blue tone in the light.
Since you do not change water so often in a saltwater aquarium (compared to a freshwater aquarium), then special substances accumulate - and they give a yellow tint to the water. This allows a light source with low K to make the water look more yellow than it does in a freshwater aquarium (where dense water change makes the yellow substances not to concentrated in the same degree). One can avoid this by using ozone and activated carbon.
You can not imagine that this could be because I try to explain issues which are difficult and often needs to be qualified in a language that I was not born with. In addition, it is with people who have another native culture than I have.
Sincerely Lasse
Lasse - as an American that has had the pleasure of working in multi-cultural teams of people all over the world, I am acutely sensitive to your last point. Communicating in the same language does not remotely compensate for our cultural differences. In some ways, it may make things worse because it fools us into thinking that the words expressed are understood equally by all recepients.
Thank you for working thru that with us, as you spend so much time helping us understand what you have learned. I'm sure I speak for many in saying a heart-felt "Thank you".
However I've been tagging along in this conversation for a long time, hoping for much of what Beananimal is advocating; a single point source of LED light that both eliminates the "disco" effect while at the same time providing individuals the ability to tune-in a spectra that reef keepers have come to know and love. For myself that would be light that looks much like an appropriately powered Radium MH bulb, with supplemental actinics for "pop". But that's just my taste.*
Bottom line - your shared knowledge and insight is MUCH appreciated. Thank you. Now can you help us get to a way to flexibly tailor single chip LEDs to spectra that reefers seem to prefer?
Thanks.
Thank you for working thru that with us, as you spend so much time helping us understand what you have learned. I'm sure I speak for many in saying a heart-felt "Thank you".
However I've been tagging along in this conversation for a long time, hoping for much of what Beananimal is advocating; a single point source of LED light that both eliminates the "disco" effect while at the same time providing individuals the ability to tune-in a spectra that reef keepers have come to know and love. For myself that would be light that looks much like an appropriately powered Radium MH bulb, with supplemental actinics for "pop". But that's just my taste.*
Bottom line - your shared knowledge and insight is MUCH appreciated. Thank you. Now can you help us get to a way to flexibly tailor single chip LEDs to spectra that reefers seem to prefer?
Thanks.
bhazard451
New member
I guess we are a bit ahead of our time. It looks like a full spectrum multichip wont be happening anytime soon. I didn't like that 100 would need to be made in order to produce one anyway.
Maybe another LED or fixture manufacturer will think of this and run with it. They have far more resources available to them to make this happen. I'm good with my Cree/Luxeon for now.
Maybe another LED or fixture manufacturer will think of this and run with it. They have far more resources available to them to make this happen. I'm good with my Cree/Luxeon for now.
Lassef
Member
Lasse - as an American that has had the pleasure of working in multi-cultural teams of people all over the world, I am acutely sensitive to your last point. Communicating in the same language does not remotely compensate for our cultural differences. In some ways, it may make things worse because it fools us into thinking that the words expressed are understood equally by all recepients.
Thank you for working thru that with us, as you spend so much time helping us understand what you have learned. I'm sure I speak for many in saying a heart-felt "Thank you".
However I've been tagging along in this conversation for a long time, hoping for much of what Beananimal is advocating; a single point source of LED light that both eliminates the "disco" effect while at the same time providing individuals the ability to tune-in a spectra that reef keepers have come to know and love. For myself that would be light that looks much like an appropriately powered Radium MH bulb, with supplemental actinics for "pop". But that's just my taste.*
Bottom line - your shared knowledge and insight is MUCH appreciated. Thank you. Now can you help us get to a way to flexibly tailor single chip LEDs to spectra that reefers seem to prefer?
Thanks.
Thank you but if we succed - it is Ronreef:s work that have make it happen.
The thing is that I am fully convinced (at least on paper) that the configuration Ronreef call "dream ratio" is just that. My understanding is that with this configuration you can just do what you want with the light pattern and the fact that there are 45 mil chip allows me to become even more convinced. And the configuration is maximized for optimum growth of most corals. All of the interesting blue region (420-460 nm) are covered
This is not done before so there is a risk that it will go wrong but I hope that there are so many people who dare to stand on the tip of the knife so that it will happen. I think it will set a new standard in the saltwater aquarium hobby.
But I could be wrong - it has happened before
Sincerely Lasse
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