Minimalistic multichip DIY LED build

[mr.wilson]

I can only imagine if there was a version like some had proposed with two blue, 10k and 6500k and a 660nm channel.

What's wrong with that combination? and don't tell not enough me chl c peaks

"Dream chip" is just a label, man, chill out. Some sort of name was required and this is what has stuck - I don't think whining about how it's not humble enough for you is going to change it.

Some people are drawn in by gimmick names, while others are turned off. Miracle mud is one such example. Santa Monica had some similar marketing practices.

If you want to set up a different selection of colors, I imagine you could get any selection of colors you want made - I suspect they would simply load different chips in their machine, and whatever phosphor you want for white channels. It was the cost of the custom 5 channel masking, and no doubt setup time on their equipment, that made the order 50 pieces. Who would want to spend possibly hours of downtime on production equipment to run off a small and likely one time order? I know there was a lot of fancy talk earlier about how companies eagerly produce prototypes for free, but that only happens when a business makes a commitment to ordering - not when someone enquires as to the minimum order.

The talk wasn't fancy. I had one company make me a single 5 channel chip for $240. As it turned out, it didn't pass their quality control testing so they gave me a full credit. I didn't pursue the matter further with any other manufacturers.

Developing a new product takes years, not hours. How many vendors did you approach to get a 5 channel multichip made? Ebay is not a place where manufacturers do business. You will only find brokers who work from home on Ebay.

 

[Lassef]

In one chart from the study I linked, they show that chl c (light green dinoflagellate called peridinium) has absorption peaks at 582, 583 & 584nm so there is a photosynthetic value to this light.

This study shows that red fluorescent proteins are excited by 559nm light.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC129323/

No - chl C stands for chlorophyll C (the one you dont want us to mention ) In table IV in the article 11 different phothosyntetic proteins is listed with their absorbtion peaks for different organism that have these (or subpopulations) fractions. In 9 of these fractions no peak is higher than 478 nm. In two fractions - chlorophyll A and chlorophyll C there is peaks for 660 range in chlorophyll A and for chlorophyll C there is reported peaks at 582-584 and 630 nm. And for the organism you refer to

light green dinoflagellate called peridinium

they say that "not given" for chlorophyll C!

Of 119 identified peak wavelengths for different photosynthetic proteins 15 has absorbtion peaks higher than 478 nm - thats 12 % The 582-584 peaks stands for 2.5 % of the listed peaks.

IMO - my statement that the most important range of wavelengths for coral photosynthesis is between 410 - 470 nm stands solid as a rock.

@ mr.wilson: I love to discuss the hard fact with you but the path you have take now is not a serious path. Please discus the facts and let other people stands for the romurs. I´m rather used of reading scientic materials and if someone refer to scientic articles - I read them just to check up that I´m not have missed anything.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Lassef]

I don't know about everyone else, but I enjoy this tango they are doing. I feel like I'm learning something

Lassee, if blue is needed so much, then why was the ai sol not as good as the radion? The radion is more full spectrum then the ai. Also a lot of early led fixtures had only blue And white. What were they doing wrong?

I do not know the configuration of these fixtures. But I think you will find the answer in the presence or absence of particular wavelenghts in the blue range.

And it is also important to stress that there can be other biological important wavelenghts not directly linked to photosynthesis (hormon production and similar things). Therefore 40 % of the Dream Chip ( the "Shilled" Chip for some people) consist of white light that have all the other wavelengths

Sincerely Lasse

 

[megadeth72]

What's wrong with that combination? and don't tell not enough me chl c peaks



Some people are drawn in by gimmick names, while others are turned off. Miracle mud is one such example. Santa Monica had some similar marketing practices.



The talk wasn't fancy. I had one company make me a single 5 channel chip for $240. As it turned out, it didn't pass their quality control testing so they gave me a full credit. I didn't pursue the matter further with any other manufacturers.

Developing a new product takes years, not hours. How many vendors did you approach to get a 5 channel multichip made? Ebay is not a place where manufacturers do business. You will only find brokers who work from home on Ebay.

you were giving useful information now it just seems like your trolling.

It's obvious development did take place even if you do not think it should have been done this way. I DO NOT CARE how the development happened or where it happend, the fact is we can get these now.

I dont care of someone makes money on them, in fact TAKE MY MONEY I hope these things hit ebay soon.

on a separate subject, the combination you referenced would not interest me, the dreamchip config minus the UV would be what I would buy if I could tweak my own chip, I'm not sure uv is useful all of my previous lights would have filtered it out. If the combination you referenced was all I could get, yes I probably would buy one, because it still beats my single channel multichip

 

[Lassef]

@megadeth

The 420 and 430 is no UV - in spite of what people call them. These wavelenghth right name is actinic. The UV begins below 400 nm. The actinic light will promote the fluorescence of your corals and some photosynthesis. UV protection of MH remove wavelengths below 400 nm.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[bhazard451]

I'm amused at your current take on the design - especially since those opposed to the color selections that were decided on felt that the emitter would be far too blue. I can only imagine if there was a version like some had proposed with two blue, 10k and 6500k and a 660nm channel. The design was selected because it had the most interest, by the way.

"Dream chip" is just a label, man, chill out. Some sort of name was required and this is what has stuck - I don't think whining about how it's not humble enough for you is going to change it.

If you want to set up a different selection of colors, I imagine you could get any selection of colors you want made - I suspect they would simply load different chips in their machine, and whatever phosphor you want for white channels. It was the cost of the custom 5 channel masking, and no doubt setup time on their equipment, that made the order 50 pieces. Who would want to spend possibly hours of downtime on production equipment to run off a small and likely one time order? I know there was a lot of fancy talk earlier about how companies eagerly produce prototypes for free, but that only happens when a business makes a commitment to ordering - not when someone enquires as to the minimum order.

I was quoted from three Chinese suppliers that they would make an individual chip with 5 channels for $225-250 because of the complicated process. It could have easily been done at any point. AC-RC isn't the only store out there.

They also let me know that there could be issues because of phosphors mixing in close proximity (which there have been), and a bunch of other warnings saying you're on your own if you don't like it. Although I'm interested in the development of these, I'm not interested enough to waste $250 on them before seeing them.

If someone was truly interested in moving these along for the good of the community, why wouldn't they just purchase the single chip instead and test it? It morphed into a shill requiring a group buy before even seeing a tested chip. If that doesn't raise some red flags, then you were successfully duped into it. A group buy of anything will lower the price. It still doesn't make it right or allowed here.

 

[dwolson2]

Who said Radion is better than AI?

Just what I have noticed from users.

 

[mr.wilson]

you were giving useful information now it just seems like your trolling.

It's obvious development did take place even if you do not think it should have been done this way. I DO NOT CARE how the development happened or where it happend, the fact is we can get these now.

I dont care of someone makes money on them, in fact TAKE MY MONEY I hope these things hit ebay soon.

on a separate subject, the combination you referenced would not interest me, the dreamchip config minus the UV would be what I would buy if I could tweak my own chip, I'm not sure uv is useful all of my previous lights would have filtered it out. If the combination you referenced was all I could get, yes I probably would buy one, because it still beats my single channel multichip

This is a discussion about minimalistic multichips which covers a broad range of subtopics. Somewhere along the way, it turned into a group buy contact list. I have participated in the conversation from the early days of this thread and I have always stated my opinion openly. When two people disagree, you can't call one a troll, and the other a saint. I think you are projecting your personal interests into the debate.

You have taken a consumer approach to the discussion, while I am offering a free exchange of information that will move the technology forward. I have been playing around with multichips for almost two years now and enjoy sharing my experience in the journey. I am not a scientist, or a lighting expert, but I feel I can help in the process people are going through with their respective DIY multichip projects. The scientific approach requires one to accept that your theory can be wrong and you embrace any information that could do so. There is no room in science for profiteers and egos. You cannot shape the information you collect to fit your model, it is what it is and you live with it.

It's comments like "shut up and let us buy what they are selling without question", that fall into troll territory.

 

[mr.wilson]

Just what I have noticed from users.

The first generation AI is not as good as the Radion, but the new AI is very similar. One of the reef blogs just posted a "Three way led stand off comparing the GHL Mitras, Ecotech Radion, and the AI Vega".

 

[mr.wilson]

I was quoted from three Chinese suppliers that they would make an individual chip with 5 channels for $225-250 because of the complicated process. It could have easily been done at any point. AC-RC isn't the only store out there.

They also let me know that there could be issues because of phosphors mixing in close proximity (which there have been), and a bunch of other warnings saying you're on your own if you don't like it. Although I'm interested in the development of these, I'm not interested enough to waste $250 on them before seeing them.

If someone was truly interested in moving these along for the good of the community, why wouldn't they just purchase the single chip instead and test it? It morphed into a shill requiring a group buy before even seeing a tested chip. If that doesn't raise some red flags, then you were successfully duped into it. A group buy of anything will lower the price. It still doesn't make it right or allowed here.

Yes phosphor mixing is a major concern. They cannot do single rows of white LEDs and they need to space the chip out to keep the phosphors away from the other rows of LEDs. This is why I opted for a three channel (RWB) chip with 5 colours. It doesn't have 5 channels of control, but it has three colour groups instead of two (WB).

Testing chips is tough. I played around with about 5 different multichips before committing to a new design for 16 of them for my shop. At the time, multiple channels wasn't available and the chips turned out to be too violet/red with not enough blues. I had to scrap all 16 of them but fortunately the manufacturer gave me a full credit.

This thread has been held back by the group buy, and when anyone tries to point it out, they are called a "troll". Any of my suggestions that did not conform with the group buy chip were shot down. Once that chip ship had set sail, all other information became obsolete in a desperate buying frenzy.

 

[dwolson2]

The first generation AI is not as good as the Radion, but the new AI is very similar. One of the reef blogs just posted a "Three way led stand off comparing the GHL Mitras, Ecotech Radion, and the AI Vega".

I should have been more specific, but yes thats what I was referring to.

 

[dwolson2]

Yes phosphor mixing is a major concern. They cannot do single rows of white LEDs and they need to space the chip out to keep the phosphors away from the other rows of LEDs. This is why I opted for a three channel (RWB) chip with 5 colours. It doesn't have 5 channels of control, but it has three colour groups instead of two (WB).

Testing chips is tough. I played around with about 5 different multichips before committing to a new design for 16 of them for my shop. At the time, multiple channels wasn't available and the chips turned out to be too violet/red with not enough blues. I had to scrap all 16 of them but fortunately the manufacturer gave me a full credit.

This thread has been held back by the group buy, and when anyone tries to point it out, they are called a "troll". Any of my suggestions that did not conform with the group buy chip were shot down. Once that chip ship had set sail, all other information became obsolete in a desperate buying frenzy.

Although it may not be the "dream" chip for everyone, I am glad we at least have 1 multi channel multi chip. Where did you get your 3 channel chips from? I like the idea of a multi channel chip, if only because, I want to be able to tune in the exact color I want. I like the 60w hybrid chips, but what if its a hair to blue or white? I'm stuck with that color. At least with a multi channel I can tailor it to what I want. If I had my choice, I would def design my own chip, but at the quoted 250$ thats a lot more than I am willing to spend(the dream 50 led chip is only 63$)

 

[mr.wilson]

I should have been more specific, but yes thats what I was referring to.

It's hard for manufacturers of aquarium equipment to keep up with hobbyist DIY. It isn't that they know any less, or care less, but they have to get a return on their investment in developing a product. If they spend $100,000.00 developing an LED fixture, they need to sell that same fixture for a few years until they maximize their profit. It's hard to make a light that is upgrade friendly, but the newest generations are much more adaptable. This is one major benefit of multichips.

DIY projects don't need Ul or other safety standard approval, no packaging with multiple languages and certified units of measurement. There is little in the way of aesthetics, no manuals, support, extensive testing, and wiring is usually an insurance agent's nightmare

AI waited too long to upgrade their product line, and Radion probably did it too soon. In place of product improvement, many companies opt to lower the price to remain in competition. This is annoying for people who paid full price, but it keeps them in the game when everyone counted them out. AI did exactly this with Sol and Ecotech just did the same with Radion just one day after a major LED comparison test was published Another way to recover is to get your product out onto a blog where the reviews are fast and friendly.

So which is the best LED fixture to buy? The next one Technology will continue to get better and cheaper. What features can we expect from the future?

- fanless
- more compact
- adjustable lenses
- a fuller spectrum
- proper lunar cycles
- light movers and tilters
- smaller drivers
- water & moisture resistant electronics
- new cooling materials

The current LED fixtures on the market work very well, so there is no reason to wait, and there will be another new innovation to follow anyway. Prices will continue to drop, but not enough to be worth waiting for.

 

[jg210302]

I do not understand all of this banter going back and forth about the "dream chip". Everyone that purchased one did so because they wanted to and thought it was a good idea. This is how we move forward, which should be our goal...

The mention of the different wavelengths needed is exactly why I am building a fixture with two mutichips that are supplmented with 3 watt LED's... I made sure that the 3w leds could be easily changed.

Thank you everyone, but especially Lassef, Mr. Wilson, and Trop Trea for your help and input!

So what is the best color mix now?:lmao:

 

[mr.wilson]

Although it may not be the "dream" chip for everyone, I am glad we at least have 1 multi channel multi chip. Where did you get your 3 channel chips from? I like the idea of a multi channel chip, if only because, I want to be able to tune in the exact color I want. I like the 60w hybrid chips, but what if its a hair to blue or white? I'm stuck with that color. At least with a multi channel I can tailor it to what I want. If I had my choice, I would def design my own chip, but at the quoted 250$ thats a lot more than I am willing to spend(the dream 50 led chip is only 63$)

Multichannel chips are more for the convenience of the manufacturer than the end user. It's more efficient to make a chip that is too bright and let the end user dim it down to their personal aesthetic and correct intensity for their tank.

If you know what you are doing, you pick the right colour mix and intensity and order that chip. For example 14k chip driven at 100w for a 24" high tank. The problem is many people don't know what they want and can benefit from control, but once it is set, they never use the feature again.

There is a clear benefit in having exclusive blue light at dawn & dusk so you can enjoy the vivid fluorescence. This only requires a two channel chip. If you want a little more red at dawn and dusk, a three channel RWB chip is what you need.

I don't subscribe to the idea of varying the intensity of the light throughout the day, or changing the spectrum other than dawn & dusk. I respect the personal taste of others though and if they want lightning, ramping up, and cloud cover they can knock themselves out.

I keep my business interests out of the forums. I'm not here to sell anything.

 

[mr.wilson]

So what is the best color mix now?:lmao:

I certainly don't profess to know and I hope we never find out

Everyone has a right to make their own educated purchase decision and everyone has a right to try to educate those people. It's when people try to halt that process where we all lose.

 

[jg210302]

I don't subscribe to the idea of varying the intensity of the light throughout the day, or changing the spectrum other than dawn & dusk. I respect the personal taste of others though and if they want lightning, ramping up, and cloud cover they can knock themselves out.

So basically you just have full or a set intensity on your LED's for the entire photoperiod and just vary the channels used for dawn and dusk?

 

[mr.wilson]

So basically you just have full or a set intensity on your LED's for the entire photoperiod and just vary the channels used for dawn and dusk?

For a reef tank, correct. My coral tanks at the shop are illuminated at 100% for 9 hrs per day with no dawn dusk, as that is just for human enjoyment.

 

[dwolson2]

Multichannel chips are more for the convenience of the manufacturer than the end user. It's more efficient to make a chip that is too bright and let the end user dim it down to their personal aesthetic and correct intensity for their tank.

If you know what you are doing, you pick the right colour mix and intensity and order that chip. For example 14k chip driven at 100w for a 24" high tank. The problem is many people don't know what they want and can benefit from control, but once it is set, they never use the feature again.

There is a clear benefit in having exclusive blue light at dawn & dusk so you can enjoy the vivid fluorescence. This only requires a two channel chip. If you want a little more red at dawn and dusk, a three channel RWB chip is what you need.

I don't subscribe to the idea of varying the intensity of the light throughout the day, or changing the spectrum other than dawn & dusk. I respect the personal taste of others though and if they want lightning, ramping up, and cloud cover they can knock themselves out.

I keep my business interests out of the forums. I'm not here to sell anything.

I would think the manufacturer would rather only use one channel. Are there any two channel chips?

Also, how am I as a consumer supposed to know how the chip will turn out. I wantaround a 20k 60w(driven) chip. What would you then suggest?

For a reef tank, correct. My coral tanks at the shop are illuminated at 100% for 9 hrs per day with no dawn dusk, as that is just for human enjoyment.

I was once told that the sudden burst of light shocks the coral, And thats why we ramp them up. Although I have no science too back that up.

 

[Lassef]

With all respect I´m not interested to discuss figments of overheated minds here. The day it will come up evidence that anybody here has any economical interest in the Dream Chip (the "Shilled" Chip for some people) then we can discuss the thing again.

However - I think that post 3195 describe the whole problem in a beautiful way - some peoples dreams are other peoples nightmare.

Sincerely Lasse