Miracle Mud or Fiji Mud or neither

[agruetz]

OK, so I am in the process of a DIY sump because I could not find one to fit my stand etc... My question is what do you guys think of Miracle Mud or Fiji Mud in the fuge part of the sump? Good? Bad? No diff than sand?

 

[oscarinw]

Bump since it interests me as well...

 

[d2mini]

I'd also be interested in this since I plan to have mangroves in my new refugium. From what I've read so far, the Fiji mud does not need periodic replacing like the Miracle Mud. You just have to ADD more occasionally as it gets used up.

 

[SaltwaterSensei]

I would go with non of those. Even if I was using mangroves I would initially use no substrate. Then as the roots became more mature I'd slowly add some rubble.

 

[Mudbeaver]

I'm very partial to mud for various reason, i do biotope of Macro-Algae with sand and mud for my collection of Algae. but i have a huge refugium and its a display. and i use it very much as a secondary system of filtration. As example my tank being done will be 135 G and its fuge system 119 G almost as big. It will contain seahorses and other creatures. If your doing one only for algae growth with one algae species go BB with a light and be done with it. Miracle mud is for designing a complete ecosystem or biotope not a small space with just a few stick of mangrove. Its just not worth it. My 2 cents Just re-red , 15 gallon fuge is not bad your call, their's a few good example of refugium on YouTube with mud that you might find interesting. A fuge with mud need a slow flow cause you want debris and stuff to stay there for use by algae and bacteria consumption. A good cleaning crew no snail they'll eat your algae britle star are best, and cusion urchins , crabs, hermiths. A community , try a full ecosystem but 15 g is small but in relation to your tank its huge. Usually people get away with about 10% of their total water , but bigger is better as i've done myself and you re doing too..

 

[crsswift70]

Mudbeaver, i am doing a new build for my 75 with a 40B refugium. I'd be interested in seeing pics of your setup and what all you have in it. Not meaning a hijack as i think the OP would like details as well.

 

[tmz]

My vote is no mud, no sand under algae in the refugium.

 

[Mudbeaver]

This is an earlyer biotope

This is an earlyer biotope

My seahorse biotope as an example, it was by itself not connected to anything.

Seahorses loves bubbles thats why the air stones they like to swim in it

 

[d2mini]

I'm very partial to mud for various reason, i do biotope of Macro-Algae with sand and mud for my collection of Algae. but i have a huge refugium and its a display. and i use it very much as a secondary system of filtration. As example my tank being done will be 135 G and its fuge system 119 G almost as big. It will contain seahorses and other creatures. If your doing one only for algae growth with one algae species go BB with a light and be done with it. Miracle mud is for designing a complete ecosystem or biotope not a small space with just a few stick of mangrove. Its just not worth it. My 2 cents Just re-red , 15 gallon fuge is not bad your call, their's a few good example of refugium on YouTube with mud that you might find interesting. A fuge with mud need a slow flow cause you want debris and stuff to stay there for use by algae and bacteria consumption. A good cleaning crew no snail they'll eat your algae britle star are best, and cusion urchins , crabs, hermiths. A community , try a full ecosystem but 15 g is small but in relation to your tank its huge. Usually people get away with about 10% of their total water , but bigger is better as i've done myself and you re doing too..

This is basically what I'm doing.
I'm completely redoing my fuge. Will be about 45g square and it's sole purpose is additional filtration and pod production. Will be fed from the return line of my chiller, then flow into my frag tank which flows back into my big rubbermaid sump. My main display is 200g.

Have you seen Julian Sprung's refugium? He has a giant mangrove in the center and that's where I'd like to go with mine eventually. Right now I have 50 mangroves that I started growing from propagules about 10 months ago, but I'll only place a few into the new fuge so I have plenty of room for other algae.

 

[gab11]

I tryed the Miracle Mud for about a year and seen no differance in my tank. Had it in my sump for 150gal and to me it just was a overpriced issuse. I would not use it again. Waste of money but that is an opinion

 

[dkeller_nc]

I haven't used either Miracle Mud or Fiji in a salt tank (yet), but I can comment on a very similar usage of fine mud/silt in a densely planted freshwater tank that was setup to mimic a river. Similar to the saltwater case, you don't want a lot of nutrients in the water in a freshwater "garden" tank, because you'll get an algae explosion.

Mudbeaver has it right - to control the deposition of mud in mechanical filters and/or the main display tank, you want to place a layer of coarse sand or gravel on top of the mud, and allow nutrient and gas exchange by diffusion/advection.

One thing I'll note is that my system produced H2S for about 3-4 weeks until everything settled down. After that, no H2S, and my phosphates, nitrates, and measurable DOC went to nearly zero. Worked MUCH better than a more traditional tank with laterite underneath sand.

 

[d2mini]

But how do you deal with replacing or adding mud later on when you have a layer of sand on top?

 

[crsswift70]

That's my questions as well. After several years, do you rip it all up and redo it? After having just broken down my main, i really wouldn't want to do that again any time soon. Even for the the 40B i'm planning on using. You didn't have algae issues in that seahorse tank? I would think all of those nutrients plus the light would have caused an explosion. Or, did that layer of sand keep everything in the mud below it?

 

[Mudbeaver]

But how do you deal with replacing or adding mud later on when you have a layer of sand on top?

I tryed the Miracle Mud for about a year and seen no differance in my tank. Had it in my sump for 150gal and to me it just was a overpriced issuse. I would not use it again. Waste of money but that is an opinion

That's my questions as well. After several years, do you rip it all up and redo it? After having just broken down my main, i really wouldn't want to do that again any time soon. Even for the the 40B i'm planning on using. You didn't have algae issues in that seahorse tank? I would think all of those nutrients plus the light would have caused an explosion. Or, did that layer of sand keep everything in the mud below it?

First the mud is not there to give YOU signal, it is first and foremost a suplement and a very good substrate. its composition is very neutral, its purpose it acts as a stablilising agent in ponds it absord more than it release. its like a sponge if you like. Silicate mostly in composition it has elements that will help your fuge, but its the neutralising factor your after. Polluted rivers goes into ponds and swamps and on the other side of these the water come out clean. Why the ponds and swamp absorbs the pollution and the bacterias inside those ecosystem eats and process those pollutant (oils, gas, etc) into peat and other biodegradable material, thats your objective. The mud is a substrate for those bacteria and other beneficial enzyme why would you want to replace a functional system, because you don't see a parade of something.....thats kids stuff. Those who redo this all the time don't understand what they're doing .You can add to it to reseed the trace element or just add the trace element directly to your fuge throught your mud, thats duable, but not destroying a balanced fuge .

 

[crsswift70]

Ahh, ok thank you. I thought it was like mud, full of minerals and organic matter for growing plants. That's why i thought it would cause an overload of nutrients in the water. Thanks!

 

[tmz]

I still vote no mud.
It pretends to be lots of things it's not;imo. Any one considering it should do a search on the RC forums . There are many detailed threads on it . Very few long term users that I am aware of. Don't know of any seahorse breeders or keepers using successfully either and I would personally not recommend it.

 

[Peter Eichler]

Miracle mud analysis that I've seen has shown it's little more than quartz/ferrous sand. It's a gimmick and another one of the snake oil like products on the hobby. Spend your money elsewhere...

Also, someone mentioned Mangroves in this thread... Considering what we know about nutrient uptake vs. vascular plants, mangroves border on useless for for phsophate and nutrient uptake. If you like the way mangroves look, go ahead and grow some, but don't think they're making any measurable impact on your nutrient levels. Grow some type of algae for far superior nutrient export.

 

[crsswift70]

TMZ and Peter, i agree, but i like to listen to the pros and cons of things as well as users to determine what i am going to use. From the Miracle site, i see that there are a bunch of trace elements that may or may not benefit the reef tank. It also seems to claim the benefits of a deep sand bed with only an inch as opposed to, what is it, 6 inches of aragonite? It probably won't hurt anything, but i think it is perhaps just something to spend money on that isn't needed.

 

[Peter Eichler]

TMZ and Peter, i agree, but i like to listen to the pros and cons of things as well as users to determine what i am going to use. From the Miracle site, i see that there are a bunch of trace elements that may or may not benefit the reef tank. It also seems to claim the benefits of a deep sand bed with only an inch as opposed to, what is it, 6 inches of aragonite? It probably won't hurt anything, but i think it is perhaps just something to spend money on that isn't needed.

Find me something mined or dug in your back yard that doesn't have trace elements in it. Also, simply because something contains trace elements doesn't mean it's going to be released in any way at typical marine auarium PH levels. The sad thing about the auqarium industry, you can make all kinds of wild claims and no one is there to regulate if they're valid or not.

 

[d2mini]

why would you want to replace a functional system

Because that's what the manufacturer instructions say for "Miracle Mud"
And like I said earlier, for the Fiji Mud they say it dissipates over time so you need to replenish it. I get what you're saying, but my question is based on what the different manufacturers are saying.