Misleading Behavior of On-Line Fish Vendors

[Jeff]

I think a retailer including recommendations for decorations and rock is beyond the scope of a retailer due to the vast variation in everyone's tanks. Ultimately, the reponsibility lies on the hobbyist to ensure they are providing enough room, preventing overcrowding, and providing suitable tankmates based on compatibility guides.

Dimensions and volume are both credible measurements. The goal is obviously to provide information based for adult fish. Fish grow at different rates based on species, tank size, tankmates, tank conditions, and feeding regimen.

Once again, without finding out if a retailer is willing to change, the conversation won't be applicable to them. It might be an endeavor that RC could undertake to publish a guide independent of online retailers.

Agreed.
If a person can't read a list of fish, find his fish on it, see if his fish fits in his tank and can't figure out that his 220 gallon 6 foot long tank that has 480 lbs of live rock still isn't appropriate then maybe there is no hope. But maybe a few people will change their minds, that's all we can hope for. An opinion or recommendation only goes so far and then common sense picks up after that.
One thing at a time, patience goes a long way in the hobby.

 

[Stuart60611]

Agreed.
If a person can't read a list of fish, find his fish on it, see if his fish fits in his tank and can't figure out that his 220 gallon 6 foot long tank that has 480 lbs of live rock still isn't appropriate then maybe there is no hope. But maybe a few people will change their minds, that's all we can hope for. An opinion or recommendation only goes so far and then common sense picks up after that.
One thing at a time, patience goes a long way in the hobby.

Expecting such common sense from someone who has never kept fish I think is too much to expect. Common sense can only be applied when someone actually has some experience and therefore a frame of reference to which it can be applied. You cannot, imo, expect someone to reason through issues as complex and nuianced as keeping marine fish based on simple common sense. Someone who has never kept fish may not even consider the amount of rock they have in the system as a limiting factor in terms of having enough space for a fish. People who are new to the hobby are exposed to many foreign concepts and often feel very overwhelmed with this vast amount of new information. They need clear guidance, and it should not, imo, be assumed that they will be able to sort things out on their own when given incomplete or inaccurate information. When I first started keeping fish, I know that I never paid any attention to whether I had too much rock in the tank to keep a particular fish. I am sure many new hobbyists also fail to even consider this and instead figure that as long as the person has the minimumly sized tank suggesed by the vendor then the tank is large enough.

 

[MedRed]

As stated above, dimensions should be included with with volume. Habitat would include rock/decorations. While that is pertinent to providing an ideal environment, that really would be in addition to minimum guidelines. There are plenty of guides, including one on Live Aquaria for species compatibility.


This is evolving into retailers having a complete overhaul of their websites as opposed to minimum tank dimensions. Will you be asking you LFS to provide similar information?

 

[Jeff]

So, is adding a suggestion to take the amount of swimming room in one's tank into consideration good enough for you Stuart? Or should there be a step by step way to measure the total amount of free space, multiply the total amount of surface area of the intended adult fish divide that by the number of water changes per week and take the square root of it all and subtract the total amount of that by the other fish in the system?

Even if you can't expect common sense from someone you can only go so far with your suggestions and opinions before you are ignored.

 

[Stuart60611]

As stated above, dimensions should be included with with volume. Habitat would include rock/decorations. While that is pertinent to providing an ideal environment, that really would be in addition to minimum guidelines. There are plenty of guides, including one on Live Aquaria for species compatibility.


This is evolving into retailers having a complete overhaul of their websites as opposed to minimum tank dimensions. Will you be asking you LFS to provide similar information?

As I have stated before, the on-line retailers have to provide no husbandry information whatsoever. My LFS does not provide any husbandry information. However, if they choose to do so, I believe they have to do so in a materially accurate and complete fashion.

 

[Stuart60611]

So, is adding a suggestion to take the amount of swimming room in one's tank into consideration good enough for you Stuart? Or should there be a step by step way to measure the total amount of free space, multiply the total amount of surface area of the intended adult fish divide that by the number of water changes per week and take the square root of it all and subtract the total amount of that by the other fish in the system?

Even if you can't expect common sense from someone you can only go so far with your suggestions and opinions before you are ignored.

And the question at hand is how far is too far (or not enough) in terms of the information in this regard which should be provided.

 

[Jeff]

And the question at hand is how far is too far (or not enough) in terms of the information in this regard which should be provided.

It really doesn't matter. Live Aquaria and a couple other stores have their information that they suggest. I guarantee you they believe it's the best information available.They have no obligation to make any changes at all to their suggestions. If you are lucky enough to sway them, whatever amount of new/changed information they provide is a win.

 

[Stuart60611]

It really doesn't matter. Live Aquaria and a couple other stores have their information that they suggest. I guarantee you they believe it's the best information available.They have no obligation to make any changes at all to their suggestions. If you are lucky enough to sway them, whatever amount of new/changed information they provide is a win.

Totally agree except for the portion of your post where you opine that LA believes that it is providing the best minimum tank size information available. I strongly believe that LA is fully aware that substantial amounts of this information is materially inaccurate or incomplete and has known so for quite a long time for all of the reasons I outlined in my previous posts. If I thought the inaccurate or incomplete minimum tank size information given was merely a function of a clerical error, an inadvertant oversight, or the best information available, I would not have reacted as strongly as I have in this thread.

 

[Jeff]

I never said that they believe that their information is the best regarding minimum tank size information. I said that they believe it's the best information available.

 

[Stuart60611]

I never said that they believe that their information is the best regarding minimum tank size information. I said that they believe it's the best information available.

So, we are spliting hairs today. I guess I and many others with our fish keeping skills and experience have much more information available to us on minimum tank sizes for fish than LA who has been keeping fish professionally and for so much longer than I and most people here at RC have. I just have a very hard time accepting the idea that LA with the amount of experienced people on staff or affiliated therewith (many of whom have advanced degrees in related areas) does not have this information also available to it.

 

[Jeff]

They do have this information available, in fact, I would think that they wrote a lot of it.
As far as splitting hairs, I think that they are putting the best information they can on their site regarding tank sizes. Even though they have altered the thinking of many reefkeepers and schooled thousands on some of the most basic information out there, they are still a business. They feel that you can keep a tang in a tank that is smaller then you think it should be kept in. Their thinking is quite possibly based on reality and retail.

 

[MedRed]

Agreed.
If a person can't read a list of fish, find his fish on it, see if his fish fits in his tank and can't figure out that his 220 gallon 6 foot long tank that has 480 lbs of live rock still isn't appropriate then maybe there is no hope. But maybe a few people will change their minds, that's all we can hope for. An opinion or recommendation only goes so far and then common sense picks up after that.
One thing at a time, patience goes a long way in the hobby.

Expecting such common sense from someone who has never kept fish I think is too much to expect. Common sense can only be applied when someone actually has some experience and therefore a frame of reference to which it can be applied. You cannot, imo, expect someone to reason through issues as complex and nuianced as keeping marine fish based on simple common sense. Someone who has never kept fish may not even consider the amount of rock they have in the system as a limiting factor in terms of having enough space for a fish. People who are new to the hobby are exposed to many foreign concepts and often feel very overwhelmed with this vast amount of new information. They need clear guidance, and it should not, imo, be assumed that they will be able to sort things out on their own when given incomplete or inaccurate information. When I first started keeping fish, I know that I never paid any attention to whether I had too much rock in the tank to keep a particular fish. I am sure many new hobbyists also fail to even consider this and instead figure that as long as the person has the minimumly sized tank suggesed by the vendor then the tank is large enough.

I have to agree with Jeff. A person with common sense will know to research before buying. The key is to make sure that whatever information you choose to present, be it great or small, is accurate.

The greater problem is people will do what they want. There are a lot of people that could read about a specific tang needing 120 gallons on 5 sites and then read it only needs 60 on one sketchy site. Guess what? that one site may be all of the information they need to convince themselves to buy that tang.

I don't think a single person's anecdotal evidence should be taken as gospel. My story is the complete opposite of yours. If you look at my first thread and the thread for my 34 gallon tank, you will see a newcomer to reefing paying attention to every detail and performing a lot of research before making decisions. My story doesn't necessarily relate to the masses.

There is a lot of guess work in reefing. Things have changed dramatically over the last 30-20-10-5 years. Heck... I was gone for 6 months and came back to bio pellets being all the rage and finding out my Metal Halide fixtures were yesterday's news.

These guidelines need not be so rigid. Ultimately, the responsibility is on the hobbyist to put in time and research before buying. There's a plethora of information out there. I still see Tangs in tanks too small for them, Wild caught mandarins in nano tanks with no fuge and no weaning plan, Catalina gobies and margarita snails in warm water tanks, Clownfish thrown into a tank that was never cycled, etc.

 

[Stuart60611]

They do have this information available, in fact, I would think that they wrote a lot of it.
As far as splitting hairs, I think that they are putting the best information they can on their site regarding tank sizes. Even though they have altered the thinking of many reefkeepers and schooled thousands on some of the most basic information out there, they are still a business. They feel that you can keep a tang in a tank that is smaller then you think it should be kept in. Their thinking is quite possibly based on reality and retail.

Maybe so. I think you can make that case for some of the fish LA sells. I think, however, it is very difficult to do so for quite a few of them -- some of which I have listed in my prior posts. I just do not know how you can keep an adult and largely full grown Tessalata Eel in a 180 gallon tank. In fact, I really believe that it can be dangerous to do so and could result in the tank glass breaking and considerable property damage therefrom or the hobbyist being injured from the breaking glass or aggressive behavior from the eel. If you have ever seen how large, thick, and aggressive this eel gets when a largely full grown adult then I think you would understand what I mean. Moreover, as I stated in a prior post, I would hate to be the hobbyist who figures out that the eel is too large for a 180 gallon tank and now has to try to re-home the eel without loosing a digit. That imo is reality and fantasy is any claim that such an adult eel can be safely maintained in a 180 gallon tank.

 

[NyReefNoob]

So Stuart, you feel that it is ok to condemn LA, but not going after any of the other well know site's that post no requirements ? here's some other site's reccomendations, listen i don't cont on a store to tell me what it needs or how big it gets and so on, i understand that most noobs need guidance, but even if they put a much larger minimum tank size people are going to buy it reguardless of what the reccomendation is.

Achilles Tang

Scientific Name Acanthurus achilles
Reef Compatible Yes
Care Level Expert-only
Disposition Semi-aggressive
Min. Tank Size 75 gallons
Mature Size 9.5 inches
Diet Herbivore
Range Hawaii
Size Class 15 view chart

another site's achilles tang

Also known as the Achilles Surgeon , Red Tailed Surgeon, or the Achilles Surgeonfish. This fish has a dark chocolate brown body with an orange patch in the shape of a teardrop just before the tail. It has thin orange lines at the base of the anal and dorsal fins. There is also a thick orange vertical line on the tail. It has white gill covers. Considered to be semi-aggressive. May become territorial, and fight with other similar tangs.

Provide hiding places large enough to accommodate, as this fish can grow up to 10 inches. The Achilles Tang requires a lot of swimming space and a strong turbulent water flow. As most tangs mainly feed on algae, this fish requires lots of live rock for grazing.

Diet should include plenty of algae based flake or pellets, nori, and fresh greens. Will also accept most small meat items such as mysis and pieces of krill.

and another one's

SPECIFIC GRAVITY RANGE 1.020-1.024
TANK SIZE 100 gal
TEMPERATURE RANGE 76-84
MAXIMUM SIZE 8"
PH RANGE 8.0-8.4
SCIENTIFIC NAME Acanthurus achilles
COMMON NAME Achilles Tang - Medium
ORIGIN Indo-Pacific
DIFFICULTY Moderate
DIET Omnivore
INVERT SAFE Yes
REEF SAFE Yes
RESTRICTED Yes
COMMUNITY SAFE Yes

 

[Stuart60611]

So Stuart, you feel that it is ok to condemn LA, but not going after any of the other well know site's that post no requirements ?

I have explained why I have this view in several of my other prior posts in this thread. But, again, the answer to your question is yes. A vendor who provides no minimum tank size information to a hobbyist will cause the hobbyist to seek out this information hopefully from a reliable source who will provide the hobbyist with accurate and complete information. A hobbyist who receives this information from such an authoritative vendor, such as LA, may rely upon this information without researching the issue any further, particularlly when they are new to the hobby and have no reason to doubt the accuracy or completeness of the information which is being provided from a source who is a leader in pet education.

 

[NyReefNoob]

all 3 of the one's i posted are vendors, and do you really think it will keep someone from buying a fish if they want it ? personally id be more geared at them selling fish we all know just don't survive in a tank. i've read the whole thread since the beginning. and in all honesty who can say what size is a minimm, if you google minimum tank size on any fish you will get a ton of different tank requirements, quick search on a yellow tang shows from a 50g-125g.

 

[Stuart60611]

all 3 of the one's i posted are vendors, and do you really think it will keep someone from buying a fish if they want it ? personally id be more geared at them selling fish we all know just don't survive in a tank. i've read the whole thread since the beginning. and in all honesty who can say what size is a minimm, if you google minimum tank size on any fish you will get a ton of different tank requirements, quick search on a yellow tang shows from a 50g-125g.

Indeed, this is a big part of the problem, and I would love for this thread to direct its focus toward attempting to explore how to appropriately determine minimum tank size and what information should be communicated by vendors when expressing this information. My gripe on this issue is that I have no problem accepting that there will be quite a bit of disagreement as to whether a given tank size is suitable for a fish and a myriad of variables which can affect the same which may not be equally applicable from system to system. My issue is only with respect to those minimum tank sizes listed by vendors for a given fish which are so undersized that most (if not all) hobbyists would agree it inappropriate. In other words, you usually cannot get most people to agree what is a minimum tank size for a given species, but you usually can get most people to agree with what clearly is not. My gripe exclusively relates to the latter category.

 

[Jeff]

A perfect example of America being dumbed down.

 

[Stuart60611]

A perfect example of America being dumbed down.

Ya, but keeping a marine fish is just a bit more complex and less obvious and intuitive than the notion that coffee is hot. Otherwise, I must be a real idiot b/c I sure spend quite a bit of time here on RC reading about how to do so.:hmm3:

 

[BFG]

Stuart60611, it seems to me that what you wanted for this thread to achieve based on your idea is not heading where you want it to be. What you fail to see is that there are successive tanks with fishes that the owner could provide care for that are out there, most are not mentioned or posted. You got a gripe with Live Aquaria that I noticed and you bite into that topic of LA should be providing accurate info and such, without giving a passive breather on LA. You fail to see the success LA has assisting the general public with marine upkeeping but keep gnawing on what you claim were ill derived information from LA. There were even reefers suggesting for you to contact someone at LA for you to speak to some higher position staff there but you did not want to do it then.

I can't help but feel you got something against LA, maybe a fail delivery or a DOA perhaps? I do not feel you could have ordered a fish that could out grow your tank as you've mentioned you are a highly educated person. The way I see it, those suggestion given by LA are just a guide, which might also not include such stuff as amount of live rock and other live stock that would take up a volume of space in a tank. I also see the mods trying to explain to you some other aspect or angle of view in regards to your topic but you adamantly say they were wrong or you did not agree with them.

I am not able to change your view or make you see mine in regard to the topic you started. However, I wish you well and I really hope that whatever you were looking for or to change the direction where this hobby is heading is a success! Good luck and may God Bless You on your future endeavor!