more tang arguments

[Angel*Fish]

Good luck with that. I posted the whole thing in this thread (before it was split off) - they didn't even have to click on the link- and you'd think I'd used invisible ink. If it could be posted as a permanently open thread sticky maybe someone would see it. :lol:

 

[TampaReefer79]

Times about a gazillion after reading this thread...

The aquarium industry doesn't even frequently breed most species of tangs, so the majority of them are simply caught in the wild.

Ummm, the 'aquarium industry' doesn't breed ANY species of Tangs...they are ALL wild caught, not a 'majority of them'.

 

[AquaReeferMan]

He looks fat and healthy.

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Yep, and that about sums it up...

 

[Allmost]

I got a blue tang for my 65G SPS tank 3 months ago !
it was the smallest tang I have ever seen ! it was smaller than my clown fishes !!!

3 months later, and now I CANT wait for my bigger tank (which I have already ordered and its being build) to get here, why ? cause the tang outgrew the tank in 3 months !!!

yes from 1 inch (or less !!!!) to now at least 4 inches ...

he eats like crazy, anything putten in tank, and sleeps within my SPS branches.

I have some serious filteration and flow in this tank though .... I wouldnt recommend a blue tang in a regular 65G.

just to show how much a HEALTHY fish should grow in 3 months !! if ures hasnt outgrew the 55 in 4 years, there are some SERIOUS ISsues !!

mine eats 1 sheet of nori daily +brine shrimp + Mysis at nights, balanced diet is REALLY important for tangs as well. they need vegies and different types /colors.

 

[Beaun]

Honestly the whole hobby is a bit selfish as we keep animals in artificial environments for our own pleasure. Anybody breeding tangs in their tanks? Probably not. Suppose I draw the line there and say if they're not breeding, they're not happy, and you shouldn't keep them.

We keep them for our pleasure, but to do so, we should be providing the best possible homes for them. There is a difference between surviving and thriving; a large tang in a 55g is just surviving. The first question should be what fish are appropriate for my system, not what fish do I want.

Most tangs can't spawn in home aquarium because they are not large enough, yes. But that is usually because multiples of the same species are not usually housed together for aggression issues, and even if there is a pair the tank is usually not tall enough to facilitate spawning. I've seen tangs spawning at AMWs 20,000g reef. I believe it is 6' tall and they use all of it.

 

[Sk8r]

Reefing offers a broad choice of creatures to keep. My own choice is gobies and blennies and dragonets, which live their whole lives and may happily breed in a range of space I can conveniently provide, even in a 54g tank. Food arrives daily, they have a range of live food from a fuge, they have ample space for their burrow and they have no sharks, rays, or hungry fish to make a meal of them and ten others of their size at once. So if fish can be said to be happy in an environment, mine at least have a fairly cushy spot, and in nature, they wouldn't claim any more space than this anyway. I don't like to go above that size limit, but that's a personal choice based partly on the fact I don't have an 8 foot wall to devote to the hobby.

That said, I can also say---if I had an 8 foot wall and tank to match, I *still* wouldn't get some species, because an 8 foot tank and the technology we have can't keep, say, a Pacific octopus or a leafy sea dragon. There is ALWAYS something you can't/shouldn't keep, no matter how big your tank, and if you want to see these creatures up close, go scuba or go to the Seattle Aquarium, a lovely trip. Join the aquarium society and get a backstairs tour on the offered days, and see how it all works. It's an education, and it supports public awareness of the value of the ocean.

 

[RedM3]

Ummm, the 'aquarium industry' doesn't breed ANY species of Tangs...they are ALL wild caught, not a 'majority of them'.

http://www.bluezooaquatics.com/productDetail.asp?did=1&cid=361&pid=6582

"These Tank Raised Yellow Tangs have been reared in captivity..."

 

[Sk8r]

They say reared, not 'born' or 'bred', however. I've seen footage of tangs mating, and to my recollection it involves a long upward run to a release of eggs and sperm, and that's tang parenting as far as it goes. At that point the fertilized eggs probably disperse on a strong current, live or die, and once hatched, the tang fry must have a heckuva survival curve.

One of the reasons we can't breed a lot of species in our tanks is that the machinery that produces the lifegiving current is not the moon, but a nasty violent pump; and if fry got through that to my fuge, they'd be likely to get swept up again. I've had red hermits breed, and none made it: food for no-see-ums, probably.

 

[Floowid]

http://www.bluezooaquatics.com/productDetail.asp?did=1&cid=361&pid=6582

"These Tank Raised Yellow Tangs have been reared in captivity..."

Tank raised does not = captive bred. These tangs are collected from the wild just like all the others.

 

[Beaun]

http://www.bluezooaquatics.com/productDetail.asp?did=1&cid=361&pid=6582

"These Tank Raised Yellow Tangs have been reared in captivity..."

As other have said they are not bred in captivity. They get post larval tangs from the wild and raise them in captivity till they are large enough to sell.

 

[RedM3]

The definition of rearing is "to breed and raise" or "the developmental life phase from fertilization of eggs to adult."

Perhaps that particular website is improperly using the word, but no one here actually knows for sure unless they are running that company, so we can only take it from face value.

 

[Angel*Fish]

You might find this thread interesting http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1886849

And then there's this handy how to article :lol: http://www.ehow.com/how_4550684_breed-yellow-tangs.html

http://www.marinebreeder.org/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=7817&sid=0b05ca8aee2aa45a8e69d4e62dc93fe5

 

[cubsFAN]

I want to hear more about tank bred mini tangs and how people don't know anything about a company unless they work there. And I want a golden goose too... give it to me daddy... NOW!!!

 

[cubsFAN]

Not zee chocolate tang Augustus!!!

 

[Frogmanx82]

We keep them for our pleasure, but to do so, we should be providing the best possible homes for them. There is a difference between surviving and thriving; a large tang in a 55g is just surviving. The first question should be what fish are appropriate for my system, not what fish do I want.

Most tangs can't spawn in home aquarium because they are not large enough, yes. But that is usually because multiples of the same species are not usually housed together for aggression issues, and even if there is a pair the tank is usually not tall enough to facilitate spawning. I've seen tangs spawning at AMWs 20,000g reef. I believe it is 6' tall and they use all of it.

That's my point. No one has a tank big enough for a tang to be "happy" if you define happy as being able to live according to their instincts. It's an arbitrary line drawn then on the degree to which their natural behavior is acceptably curbed. Many people draw the line at swimming around and eating, free from disease. Stunted growth is entirely acceptable, always has been in this hobby.

 

[username in use]

Stunted growth is entirely acceptable, always has been in this hobby.

Im sorry, but that is a terrible reasoning. Stoning people was an acceptable punishment for adultery at one point. Tying women to stones to see if they would float was a reasonable test if a woman was a witch. Slavery was a reasonable way to run a farm.

To do something only because it is what has been accepted in the past is a sure way to never grow in any way. It is the mistakes of the people before us that can teach us about where we need to be going and what we need to be striving for, so that the people that come after us can learn from us and continue to improve and go to places that we didnt even think possible.

 

[albano]

... but I do think that telling people they can;t put a tang in a tank that is 55 or bigger is wrong. If they want to do it let them, if it dies it is not your fault.

the 'aquarium industry' doesn't breed ANY species of Tangs...they are ALL wild caught, not a 'majority of them'.

Perhaps that particular website is improperly using the word, but no one here actually knows for sure unless they are running that company, so we can only take it from face value.

Times about a gazillion after reading this thread...

Unfortunately, the people that don't get 'it', never will!

 

[Sk8r]

Stunted growth is a myth that has carried over from freshwater, and I'm doubting it works there, either. You can bonsai a tree by clipping its roots and limiting water, but bonsai'ing animals just doesn't work. Clip their tails or their ears, and they're still Great Danes. It was once believed (Lamarckian evolution) that if you cut the tails off generations of mice, they would become tailless mice: doesn't work. No bonsai'ed critters.

Over a number of generations you can breed for characteristics, but we've just demonstrated we don't breed these animals, let alone select their parentage.

Myth has big play in hobbies involving animals. I can name you some involving horses that aren't family-friendly; weren't true, anyway. As late as 1960, people believed that a pedigreed Persian having one litter of kittens with an alley tom meant she was no longer purebred and that all her subsequent kittens would have alley genes.

Same with 'grows only to fit the tank.' Look up the damage done by corseting and footbinding. Genetics will out, even if your fashion bends your bones. You still have a spleen: it's just slightly relocated behind your heart; or a heelbone: it's in that mass somewhere.There are x-rays on the web, but I don't give a link here, because most people would be too grossed out to think straight. In the case of fish and tanks, you'll find the fish in an undersized tank are almost always listed as 'fat and happy'...read: liver damage. Fat in the liver. Not a good thing.

 

[Beaun]

The definition of rearing is "to breed and raise" or "the developmental life phase from fertilization of eggs to adult."

Perhaps that particular website is improperly using the word, but no one here actually knows for sure unless they are running that company, so we can only take it from face value.

We aren't the ones who decided to use the term "captive raised" or reared, those selling the fish decided to use that term. Take up the semantics with tem, no need to get angry about it. However, I can tell you with great certainty that no company is currently producing any significant amount, if any at all, of captive bred tangs.

Here's another thread about the issue, with someone from C-Quest who did the captive raising of blue tangs.
http://www.reefs.org/forums/topic121910.html

I was the guy at C-Quest doing what we called "tank raised" blue tangs. They were caught at a very small size (under 1/2 inch in most cases and almost see through, a grey / clear color) in the Solomons and they shipped to C-Quest. We had to have food available constantly for them for the first couple of weeks and then moved to 4 times per day. It would take 4 to 6 months to get to a solid 4 inch medium size. Blue tangs were the most profitable thing that we were doing at C-Quest at the time.

We did not call them Tank Bred, that was reserved for fish that were hatched from eggs and raised. The blue tangs along with several other species of fish were Tank Raised from small post larval fish shipped in from the Solomons. We also did some of this in the Solomons and exported them but could not get enough interest in it to continue the project. The farmers are still doing some coral banded shrimp and blue lobsters this way but no fish anymore.

That's my point. No one has a tank big enough for a tang to be "happy" if you define happy as being able to live according to their instincts. It's an arbitrary line drawn then on the degree to which their natural behavior is acceptably curbed. Many people draw the line at swimming around and eating, free from disease. Stunted growth is entirely acceptable, always has been in this hobby.

It's not an arbitrary line, saying a fish should not be living in a tank that is not long enough to properly grow is anything but arbitrary. This hobby is about learning, respect, and providing the best care we can give. If you can't properly care for it, leave it at the store. I've never heard of severely stunted growth being acceptable, as it shouldn't.

 

[Angel*Fish]

Sk8r, exactly - the stunting has to come from some physical problem - picture humans who grow up with liver problems for example.

As late as 1960, people believed that a pedigreed Persian having one litter of kittens with an alley tom meant she was no longer purebred and that all her subsequent kittens would have alley genes.

:lol: :lol: :lol: That's the funniest thing I've ever heard :lol: And that was the 1960's -- can you just imagine what it must have been like to live in the year 1100? :lol: