Moriah... I found the nerd! (warning: DSB content)

[NeveSSL]

Check it out:

http://ronshimek.com/Deep Sand Beds.htm

Turns out I was off, but the fourth paragraph under "Benefits" is where the info apparently comes from.

Just thought I'd share it with ya and everyone else since we now know (as though we didn't) who it was who first did some of these calculations! GO DR. SHIMEK!

Brandon

 

[mamagoose45]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!





Can I call YOU a nerd now for actually tracking down the evidence?

 

[NeveSSL]

Hey hey hey... I wasn't TRACKING down the evidence. I just happened to run into it, thank you very MUCH!

Brandon

 

[hayzooschrist]

gotta love it when a dsb turns into a solid

 

[HowardCath]

http://ronshimek.com/Deep%20Sand%20Beds.htm

Dr. Shimek writes in BOLD red letters:

"UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES SHOULD YOU ADD "SAND-SIFTING" ANIMALS SUCH AS BURROWING SEA STARS OR SOME GOBIES. These animals are "sifting" the sediment to eat the sand critters that you need to have thrive."

Angela, if your listening, maybe I don't want the cute little brittle stars you offered me.

 

[crumbletop]

Wow -- some DSB folks in the club! I love it. I have never gotten around to trying one. Some folks run a DSB in a bucket for waste processing. Others in the display. If any of you are giving it a go, it would be cool to know the benefits you are seeing and how things are going! We've got a nice club with a variety of styles. Nice to see some folks really looking into this

 

[Angela Short]

The micro brittle stars are like the larger versions Howard They don't sift the sand like "sand sifting" stars do. That is the stars he doesn't recommend. The micro's just look for tiny uneated food and detritus. Any sand sifter is sifting looking for things to eat like the worms that are beneficial to a DSB so they should not be added. We got my tank completely tore down anbd moved yesterday and I bet I pulled out 300 of those little stars yesterday from the sump. I just dumped them in my freinds 55 so I have access to them pretty easy for next time I see ya .

 

[NeveSSL]

I have the micro brittle stars and I love them! Its always so amusing to see all these tiny little, bristle-y arms sticking out of the rocks at feeding time. Lately they've been reproducing like CRAZY. I keep seeing larger ones with only 2 and 3 legs.

And, FWIW, I NEVER see them on or in the sand. In fact, if they're put on the sand, they immediately go to my rocks. I've seen a couple get shot up through my return pump (further propagating them at times ) and the just go straight to the closest shelter.

I love my DSB. I know c_stowers changes his out every two years, which sounds like a great idea, but I'm a bit worried about losing some denitrifying power if I should try it. I have nitrogen bubbles coming out of my sand all the time... looks like the bacteria is doing its job!

Brandon

 

[sandalscout]

I am planning on running a RDSB on my new setup, and if I have space, I'm very seriously considering setting up a bucket setup for a seriously deep bed. I'll have to keep you all updated on it.

 

[crumbletop]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12420140#post12420140 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by sandalscout
I am planning on running a RDSB on my new setup, and if I have space, I'm very seriously considering setting up a bucket setup for a seriously deep bed. I'll have to keep you all updated on it.

I look forward to it

 

[NeveSSL]

I'm looking forward to it, too! I thought about running a remote DSB in a 5g bucket, but I don't really have the room for it.

Keep us updated, man!

Brandon

 

[hayzooschrist]

If I remember correctly, I remember something about gflat h aving a DSB and pulling out big black chunks of sand when he moved... Explain to me how big black chunks of sand is beneficial?

 

[hayzooschrist]

From shimeks website...
"The total sediment surface area in even a small tank is impressive, indeed. In my 45 gallon reef tank, the sand bed averages about 4 inches deep, by 12 inches wide, by 36 inches long, for a total of one cubic ft of sediment. I won't bore you with the calculations, but if the average particle size is one eighth mm, and that is a good average size to have, the total sand surface area is about 14,828 square feet or just slightly over 1/3 of an acre. A LOT of bacteria can live with that amount of space!"

That 1/3 an acre holds true if the sand is floating in the air not touching anything. Dont you think all of those little surfaces will be touching each other thus creating a lot less space then he said? Thats common sense. Im sure you all have heard of "old tank syndrome", that comes from DSB's that are 4+ yrs old. Read the other forums on here where people are using DSB's and having problems with nitrates.

 

[NeveSSL]

Explain to me how big black chunks of sand is not beneficial? Is it no good just because its not naturally colored? IE, is bacteria invisible? IE, how do you know the black chunks were bad?

Its not a perfect system, and I think c_stowers may be on to something replacing his sand every 2 years as far as keeping things from getting too old.

As far as surface area, Dr. Shimek refers to it as "total sediment surface area". I interpret this as though he's taken into fact that the sand is together and in water (check the definition of sediment), NOT floating in air.

I completely agree with you its not a perfect system, but it works for a lot of people. It seems to be especially good for higher bioload tanks as it without a doubt provides more filtration. It also seems that it has a limited lifespan and can outgrow its usefulness.

Brandon

 

[HowardCath]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12419296#post12419296 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Angela Short
The micro brittle stars are like the larger versions Howard They don't sift the sand like "sand sifting" stars do. That is the stars he doesn't recommend. The micro's just look for tiny uneated food and detritus. Any sand sifter is sifting looking for things to eat like the worms that are beneficial to a DSB so they should not be added.

Oh!! Great! I didn't know the difference. Thanks, Angela. I look forward to adding new friends to my tank.

 

[hayzooschrist]

If nothing stirs it up, it will form a solid mass over time. The ocean is pretty much a DSB, but it has things like hurricanes and other natural things that keep it turned over.

 

[DMBillies]

There's a couple of reasons I'm personally moving away from an in-tank DSB. This is not to say I'm right, but I think they are logical...

Flow: Simply put, it is hard to get a lot of flow with a DSB. Take a look at a video of a coral reef and check out how much water is moving in most of the videos. Our tanks don't even approximate it. The more flow you have, the more nasties stay suspended and are immediately skimmed out before they need to be processed. This negates some of the usefulness of the sand bed and will hopefully keep your rocks in good condition for longer as well.

Cost: Putting a truly 6 inch bed in a tank of any size is going to cost an arm and a leg due to the relatively poor availability of appropriate sands of high enough quality (probably the number one reason that most sand beds are not as deep as they are really supposed to be...including the ones I've been running).

Replacement: Some people opt to replace them regularly, which is a good way to get the benefits and look of a DSB without the potential drawbacks. That said, in addition to adding cost, the logistics of actually removing the sand seem to be quite an obstacle to me. The best method I've heard is a big wet vac, but it still seems like you would suck half the water out of the tank before you got all of the sand out. I suppose that could just be considered a big water change, but some of your reef is most certainly going to be out of the water for a bit and if you aren't scrambling it could be a bit too long for some of them (I had a monti survive dry attached to an overflow for better than 4 hours... but I don't like to have corals out of the water for more than a couple of minutes max if I don't have to).

In order to get some of the benefits of a DSB but avoid what I consider to be strong downsides, I'll probably be putting a DSB in a bucket or rubbermaid on the 270. That way, I can just pull it out from under the stand and dump it every once in a while...

 

[NeveSSL]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12424836#post12424836 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hayzooschrist
If nothing stirs it up, it will form a solid mass over time. The ocean is pretty much a DSB, but it has things like hurricanes and other natural things that keep it turned over.

Definitely.

Brian:

Makes sense, man. Except my sand was only $3 for 50lbs. :lol:

I think a remote DSB may be the way to go one day. Maybe a large rubbermaid bin and some uniseals.

Keep us updated on how it goes! I would imagine a tank thread is around the corner... if not it should be.

Brandon

 

[ocd_mariner]

I couldnt agree more with every point brian just made. It seems to me the only logical possibility is having a plug and play remote sand bed.

Once you get that sand out of your main tank (just focusing on the visual benefits), its hard to go back.

 

[NeveSSL]

Really? I really like the way sand looks to be honest. Now I'm scared to go BB.

I will definitely have a remote DSB in mind for my next tank.

Brandon