My Breeding attempt - Perculas:
- Thread starter dazed
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FB
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Well you have your answer, they are not eating and starving to death.
What to do about it, I'm not sure. Depending on how big they are they definitely should be eating BBS at this point. If they are not eating live food I highly doubt they will touch anything that dosen't move.
Wish I could be of more help!
What to do about it, I'm not sure. Depending on how big they are they definitely should be eating BBS at this point. If they are not eating live food I highly doubt they will touch anything that dosen't move.
Wish I could be of more help!
dazed
New member
Yeah that must be it; i just don't get it after surviving the ammonia rise, they have been surrounded by rot's & brine shrimp swimming in green water and dropping off like flies.
and you have been a big help already; so Thank you
i just don't know what else to do.....
I would like to try again but for some reason there are no new eggs yet
and you have been a big help already; so Thank you
i just don't know what else to do.....
I would like to try again but for some reason there are no new eggs yet
dazed
New member
Bill;
The phyto is Nannochloropsis started from cultures disks from FAF.
I had been using miracle grow but switched over to a bottle of micro algae grow from FAF.
You had mentioned that would be a better source for the phyto back on page 1 of this thread. Per your suggestion i have been using 1ml per 2L bottle.
Before the ammonia issue the food density was real good at least i think so; it even seemed to me that i had more rotifers in the larvae tank with the greenwater then i had in my rotifer cultures at the time.
The phyto is Nannochloropsis started from cultures disks from FAF.
I had been using miracle grow but switched over to a bottle of micro algae grow from FAF.
You had mentioned that would be a better source for the phyto back on page 1 of this thread. Per your suggestion i have been using 1ml per 2L bottle.
Before the ammonia issue the food density was real good at least i think so; it even seemed to me that i had more rotifers in the larvae tank with the greenwater then i had in my rotifer cultures at the time.
melev
Well-known member
I have a few suggestions mainly based on what I've heard, as I've never tried to do this before:
Keep the nursery tank tiny. If the fry have to swim to the food, they won't find it.
Keep the tank dark on all sides, only with a spot light dead center. The fry are attracted to the light, so if you have a heater, cover that light with electrical tape.
I've heard you have to feed new fry 5x per day, and I would drop it right in the center of that lighted area so they can see it and eat it. An LED light might be best to keep them in a tiny area.
Siphon out waste daily.
Gutloading baby brine will work just like you do rotifers. Rotifers look like dust to me, and since we feed them phyto, they are holding a dot of phyto in their bodies. The fry eats the dust, gets a gulp of phyto. By pouring some phyto in the brine shrimp hatchery 30 mins (to 1.5 hrs) before harvesting, the brine will have some phyto in them as well. They will no longer look orange because of the phyto, ime.
Keep the nursery tank tiny. If the fry have to swim to the food, they won't find it.
Keep the tank dark on all sides, only with a spot light dead center. The fry are attracted to the light, so if you have a heater, cover that light with electrical tape.
I've heard you have to feed new fry 5x per day, and I would drop it right in the center of that lighted area so they can see it and eat it. An LED light might be best to keep them in a tiny area.
Siphon out waste daily.
Gutloading baby brine will work just like you do rotifers. Rotifers look like dust to me, and since we feed them phyto, they are holding a dot of phyto in their bodies. The fry eats the dust, gets a gulp of phyto. By pouring some phyto in the brine shrimp hatchery 30 mins (to 1.5 hrs) before harvesting, the brine will have some phyto in them as well. They will no longer look orange because of the phyto, ime.
Chris,
Sounds like you have the food cultures right. I'm loosing track, how many days ago was that ammonia spike? Ammonia spikes like that can do some physical damage that can take several days or so to heal, as well as putting the fish off feed which is also a critical problem at this stage of development.
Marc,
The newly hatched brine shrimp can't eat, so you can't gut load them. They do begin feeding when they molt to the instar 2 stage about 12 hours after hatch. At that point they can, and should be supplemented. Typically Selco is used for this. However, at the point the larval fish are being fed BBS, they need that smaller first hatch instar 1 stage
Sounds like you have the food cultures right. I'm loosing track, how many days ago was that ammonia spike? Ammonia spikes like that can do some physical damage that can take several days or so to heal, as well as putting the fish off feed which is also a critical problem at this stage of development.
Marc,
The newly hatched brine shrimp can't eat, so you can't gut load them. They do begin feeding when they molt to the instar 2 stage about 12 hours after hatch. At that point they can, and should be supplemented. Typically Selco is used for this. However, at the point the larval fish are being fed BBS, they need that smaller first hatch instar 1 stage
dazed
New member
Marc; thanks for the suggestions let me see if i can answer them
I did it's a 10g tank and it never had more than 5g of water in it. This was based on Joyce's recommendation of a large enough volume of water to help with parameters as we are dumping in nothing but live food with no filtration.
I did and it is still that way today. Wrapped in black trash bags and the tank is sitting on white foamboard. I did not cover the light with tape i simply rotated the heater and used one of the plastic clamps that holds it in place to cover the light; basically the same thing.
Well they were getting food 3x a day for the first 4 to 5 days and by then the rotifers had outpaced what they were eating. I had rotifers clinging to the sides of the tank as well as the them,air line etc. I was co-culturing the rotifers and larvae together in the tank with 2 daily additions of phyto to keep the water green and the larvae off the sides of the tank.
I am no expert by any stretch but with the air stone the larvae and the rot's do not stay in one place. For lighting i have been using a simple 8w T5 centered over the tank and slowly lowered it down after the first 3 days when they are sensitive to strong lighting. Not once did i notice them doing headstands which would mean the lighting was not to strong.
It all went downhill for me on day 8 after that they just never seemed to recover.
I have started to try this method as well, i have used phyto and have tried some roti rich as well.
I can't say if any of them even went through meta. which should be days 8-12 but i saw no real change in their appearance or actions.
Other than the ammonia issue which may have been ph related i have tried to do what the books recomend.
Wow this got long & winded but i would like to figure out where my mistakes have been so hopefully if i get the chance to try again i will not make the same ones twice.
As always thanks for the suggestions and comments.
I did it's a 10g tank and it never had more than 5g of water in it. This was based on Joyce's recommendation of a large enough volume of water to help with parameters as we are dumping in nothing but live food with no filtration.
I did and it is still that way today. Wrapped in black trash bags and the tank is sitting on white foamboard. I did not cover the light with tape i simply rotated the heater and used one of the plastic clamps that holds it in place to cover the light; basically the same thing.
Well they were getting food 3x a day for the first 4 to 5 days and by then the rotifers had outpaced what they were eating. I had rotifers clinging to the sides of the tank as well as the them,air line etc. I was co-culturing the rotifers and larvae together in the tank with 2 daily additions of phyto to keep the water green and the larvae off the sides of the tank.
I am no expert by any stretch but with the air stone the larvae and the rot's do not stay in one place. For lighting i have been using a simple 8w T5 centered over the tank and slowly lowered it down after the first 3 days when they are sensitive to strong lighting. Not once did i notice them doing headstands which would mean the lighting was not to strong.
I almost made that happen i think i missed 2 days over the last 14 and with the trouble i had from day 8 to day 10 with the ammonia the tank received serveral water changes.
It all went downhill for me on day 8 after that they just never seemed to recover.
I have started to try this method as well, i have used phyto and have tried some roti rich as well.
I can't say if any of them even went through meta. which should be days 8-12 but i saw no real change in their appearance or actions.
Other than the ammonia issue which may have been ph related i have tried to do what the books recomend.
Wow this got long & winded but i would like to figure out where my mistakes have been so hopefully if i get the chance to try again i will not make the same ones twice.
As always thanks for the suggestions and comments.
dazed
New member
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12766304#post12766304 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by billsreef
Chris,
Sounds like you have the food cultures right. I'm loosing track, how many days ago was that ammonia spike? Ammonia spikes like that can do some physical damage that can take several days or so to heal, as well as putting the fish off feed which is also a critical problem at this stage of development.
Bill; the ammonia spike was at day 8 and it all did seem to go south from there. If they stop eating that would explain why for the last couple of days it has been my observation that they are/were frozen in time.
Quick note on the bbs i was adding the newly hatched ones straight to the tank and i have been feeding the ones that were held over.
i need to type faster it seems.......
melev
Well-known member
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12766304#post12766304 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by billsreef
Marc,
The newly hatched brine shrimp can't eat, so you can't gut load them. They do begin feeding when they molt to the instar 2 stage about 12 hours after hatch. At that point they can, and should be supplemented. Typically Selco is used for this. However, at the point the larval fish are being fed BBS, they need that smaller first hatch instar 1 stage
Bill, since I've never actually tried to raise any fry, I'm going to defer to your knowledge.
On the feeding of baby brine shrimp, I was referring to adding phyto to their hatchery before they were harvested on Day 2. So they would have had 36 to 48 hours of hatching time. Are they still too young to eat at that point? Because they definitely did not look orange like unfed brine do.
I still raise live baby brine to feed my tank, which I do 4 times a week, if not more. If a batch doesn't survive for some reason, it throws off my schedule as I have to clean it out and start up new.
melev
Well-known member
I think the tank is too big, footprint-wise. I would look for a 5g tank, they are tiny and keep the fry in a smaller area.
And I may be wrong about the light, but a single spotlight of light sounds better. What about a flashlight during the feeding period? That would keep it all in one spot. FYI, rotifers swim toward light, as do baby brine.
Seems like everything would swim toward the light, both food and fry. Muah ha ha
dazed
New member
I do have my 2 rotifer cultures each in a 5g tank and i bought 2 10g tanks for the larvae maybe i could try and switch them around i would be a bit worried about keeping decent water parameters though in a 5g tank with the amount of food that goes in there and no filtration.
The 10g has a larger footprint yes but i can assure you they did not have to travel very far at all before bumping into rotifers to consume.
What i did was place the tile in the larvae tank the night of the hatch and at the same time i added 300ml of phyto as well as 1/3 of one of my rotifer cultures. The rot's had a chance to do their thing for 24 hours prior to any predators in the tank. & the culture just took off.
The light that i have been using is shorter than the 10g tank so it is pretty much centered over the tank.
Light schedule has been roughly 16 hours for them. I don't think a flashlight would work very well; because the rot's are eating & reproducing all the time and i need the light in the tank to keep the unconsumed algae alive until it is consumed at least that's how i think it works....
The 10g has a larger footprint yes but i can assure you they did not have to travel very far at all before bumping into rotifers to consume.
What i did was place the tile in the larvae tank the night of the hatch and at the same time i added 300ml of phyto as well as 1/3 of one of my rotifer cultures. The rot's had a chance to do their thing for 24 hours prior to any predators in the tank. & the culture just took off.
The light that i have been using is shorter than the 10g tank so it is pretty much centered over the tank.
Light schedule has been roughly 16 hours for them. I don't think a flashlight would work very well; because the rot's are eating & reproducing all the time and i need the light in the tank to keep the unconsumed algae alive until it is consumed at least that's how i think it works....
melev
Well-known member
If you only turned on the light when it was feeding time each time, you might have better success. They would come to the food, see it and eat it, and when the light is off they simply exist. Next feeding, the light comes on first, then the food is added, and they eat again.
That's how it was explained to me. I don't think fish need 16 hours of light, ever. Ambient light would be fine, but not with the babies. I remember Amy saying how the light is the attraction, and the reason we cover the walls of the tank is to avoid them bashing their brains out against the glass walls (something non-existant in nature).
That's how it was explained to me. I don't think fish need 16 hours of light, ever. Ambient light would be fine, but not with the babies. I remember Amy saying how the light is the attraction, and the reason we cover the walls of the tank is to avoid them bashing their brains out against the glass walls (something non-existant in nature).
FB
New member
Dazed,
I switched from 2 10 gallon to 2 5 gallon tanks. I found the larvae did better in the 5. I start with only 2 1/2 gallons of water.
I would bet money that this was caused by the ammonia. It is something I have not seen yet so I don't have much more advice for you.
I know you don't have any more eggs yet but when you do, get a seasoned sponge filter ready and just place it in the tank without any bubbles. This should help with your ammonia levels.
FB
I switched from 2 10 gallon to 2 5 gallon tanks. I found the larvae did better in the 5. I start with only 2 1/2 gallons of water.
I would bet money that this was caused by the ammonia. It is something I have not seen yet so I don't have much more advice for you.
I know you don't have any more eggs yet but when you do, get a seasoned sponge filter ready and just place it in the tank without any bubbles. This should help with your ammonia levels.
FB
dazed
New member
Marc; I have been using the 16hr lighting period as stated in Joyce's book, she even recommends a solid 24hr period for skinny larvae. The book that i have from ora states the same photoperiod being used as well. In Joyce's book she recommends only shutting down the lights if you are low on rotifer population which was not a problem for me at least this time around.
I guess i should ask How long is everyone else running the lights on the larvae tanks??
I thought we wrapped the tank to eliminate the amount of sidelighting? With the light only coming in from the top it more closely matches what would happen in nature?? Because i know for me even with the tank all wrapped up in darkness the larvae still faced towards the glass and did not turn around until enough phyto was added to green up the water.
dazed
New member
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12768078#post12768078 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by NeveSSL
But isn't that exactly what you're doing now? 5g of water in a 10g tank?
Brandon
Yes it is but if a 5g tank was used you would not be using the whole 5g maybe half that. I ran into a ammonia issue with 5-6g of water i don't know how it would work with only 2.5g
dazed
New member
FB; how long do you keep the tank operating at the 2.5g level?
I also think it was the ammonia spike at this point because looking back over my notes they seemed to stop progressing and then went downhill...
Also to expand on what Melev was saying:
How long do you run the light source on the larvae tank?
I have a sponge filter sitting in my sump for the last week so i think i will try that method next time and see if i can keep the ammonia in check.
No eggs yet but i think she is getting ready; her belly is full and she was cleaning the tile last night, hopefully today
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12766564#post12766564 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dazed
Bill; the ammonia spike was at day 8 and it all did seem to go south from there. If they stop eating that would explain why for the last couple of days it has been my observation that they are/were frozen in time.
Quick note on the bbs i was adding the newly hatched ones straight to the tank and i have been feeding the ones that were held over.
i need to type faster it seems.......
It does indeed sound like the whole issue goes to the ammonia spike.
With the BBS, you've been doing it right. Though the 2nd day left overs might be too large to feed to the larvae till the larvae get a bit bigger. I'd feed to those to the main tank
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