My Male Crosshatch Trigger Died!

[alikatoes]

No worries. I have had 3 CH die for no apparent reason, 2 males 1 female. 1 was from warrens batch, 1 from before that, and 1 from the latest. It seems to be an average of 1 per batch, but I have had 2 other batches with no DOA. I have held +/- 35 specimens in my lifetime. I didnt have any break outs in my systems. No other fish died, just as in your tank. The fish seemed to be in great health, then they break down after a day or 2. I dont feed them becasue I only hold them for 1-2 weeks then they are shipped out. If I fed them they would dirty the bags I ship them in. I am not sure what the deaths would have in common, tell me more about your guy.

 

[cb747]

Your welcome John. Maybe collectively you guys can figure out what went wrong and be able to figure out the problem of why these beautiful fish die for no apparent reason. I wasnt taking sides in this but was calling it as i saw fit. There is an opportunity here to learn and i know from previous conversations with Alex that if he can better things on his end he surely would. He is someone who truly does care in the industry. Probably more than most people. All the problems that i had were because of Delta Airlines which was out of his control.
Chris

 

[billsreef]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7093057#post7093057 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Johnsteph10
To address those above - there are 3 tests for cyanide that properly equipped labs can perform. The reason that they are not widespread to the general populace is that they multistep, complicated, expensive, and involve dangerous controlled chemicals.

One of the easier methods is to use a gas chromatograph (GC) which can identify substances in a sample liquid.

John,

The testing Joe and I have been refering to are likely the same ones. The various governmental fisheries groups and NGO's that have been looking for such testing aren't looking for DIY testing, but rather solid professional lab testing such as you use

 

[billsreef]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7093644#post7093644 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by alikatoes
I dont feed them becasue I only hold them for 1-2 weeks then they are shipped out.

Alik,

Look up some research by Bellwood, sometime in the 1980's I believe. Originally he ascribed some damage to the gastrointestinal tract to cyanide use, but later upon more detailed research discovered that those changes were in fact due to starvation of about 2 weeks.

I'd highly suggest feeding any fish you hold for more than a day or two, especially active swimming fish. To avoid fouling in the bag, simply don't feed them for 24 hours before shipping I do that myself and haven't had any bag fouling problems. In fact, I feel the fish are stronger for having been fed for those couple of weeks and better able to withstand the rigors of shipping.

 

[Johnsteph10]

You know, Bill...that is VERY interesting.

That is indeed the very reason I went down the cyanide route - the cultures of GI (gut) bacteria were incredibly low. Cyanide works by preventing cells from making energy - the first cells to show this are in areas that rapidly divide...such as the cells that line the GI tract.

It is well known in mammals that extended periods without feeding not only decreases beneficial bacteria, but it actually leads to a drastic decrease in the number of cells actively absorbing nutrients from the bowels. In humans, the numbers begin to decrease after only a few days...in 2 weeks only 10% of the cells are left.

Very interesting.

 

[alikatoes]

Yes, very interesting indeed. Another suspcion I had was system temperature. When I dive for CH I usually hit the thermocline, suggesting they prefer colder water. My guess was that they got some kind of micro-organism that is normal at most depths but restricted to those depths becasue of temperature. Its a long shot.

 

[alikatoes]

John,

Any more specifics about your dead cross that you could share? I have been working on a page on my website, and you should take a look at this page about how I collect, just for reference next time. http://005faa1.netsolhost.com/pages/2/index.htm

 

[cb747]

The site looks great Alex. Ill be in touch soon

 

[alikatoes]

Thanks for the good word, I am glad I have maintained a good rep with you and the people in your area. Talk w/you later.

 

[Spracklcat]

Alex: As someone who has received livestock from you and other large well known wholesale operations, I have to agree that your fish are of much better quality than is seen commonly. Having received fish that were clearly cyanide caught (and subsequently watching them perish) I am glad that divers like you are out there. I am hoping that if I have the opportunity to come across another cyanide-caught mortality I can give it to John to have his lab test and see if there are any differences in the cyanide levels measured.

thanks for your integrity--

 

[cb747]

Alex your top notch around here. Now if only Delta didnt mess things up. AA next time LOL

 

[Johnsteph10]

Ok, now to bump this thread back up to the top.

I'm sorry it took me a while to respond - I've been working a week of nights and that is just awful!

Official results: tested weakly positive for cyanide.

What does that mean?

= it means basically that the test is inconclusive. Some help, eh?

Fish Autopsy results (technically: necropsy) -

Severe loss of gut bacteria and more than 90% loss of intestinal villi. What does that mean? = fish starved to death, very much like it would if it was cyanide caught. The fish was able to eat but not absorb much of the nutrients from the food.

Intestinal villi/ae = folds in the intestinal tube that increase the surface area for absorption consisting mostly of short-lived cells whose function is to absorb nutrients.

In higher animals (mostly human studies) - stressful starvation can quickly and sometimes irreversibly reduce the number of these in the intestine.

Rest of results: nothing unusual in short.

Very interesting results.


Maybe this will help collectors not starve fish before shipment for more than a day or 2 - especially large constantly open water grazers like these.

 

[olemos]

Wow this is almost like a CSI episode.

 

[alikatoes]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7177753#post7177753 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Johnsteph10

Maybe this will help collectors not starve fish ...

Your fish was not starved to death 5 months ago. After being in 3 different aquaria and nearly 5 months of captivity, it just suddenly could not get the proper nutrition? You say that it looked glorious till the day it suddenly died right? That doesnt seem typical of a fish or any organism lacking nutrients. A slow death would have led to color loss, change in behaviour, and numerous indicators of a stressed fish. Anyway thats my experience with it.

I am sure that feeding up till the last few days of shipment would help this delicate species. I am glad I got something constructive from other post's. I am sure that some of you more experience hobbiest know that it is the industry standard not to feed prior to shipment. I also understand that delicate species need special treatment. CH get special treatment becasue I love the species and its smart business. Like I said, I dont hold fish for longer than 2 weeks. Again you more experience hobbiest would know that crosshatch are a huge seller and are usually sold before they are even captured. I have a waiting list of approx. 10 pairs and I am sure if I caught 20, they would all be sold quickly. Any shop owner or wholesaler knows that holding a pricey fish for awhile is not smart from a business perspective. I am sure this specimen was not held for 2 weeks, CH dont wait for buyers-buyers wait for them.

I think you are attacking your problems too aggressively and finding answers that satisfy you, not neccessarily the truth. I am still interested in seeing some pics of your fish before it died. Perhaps more information about tank mates, etc would help. One way or the other I am sure it is anybodys fault but your own, and you will have some grand explaination of how it all went down. I am excited to see what you discover next John.

 

[swannking]

I agree with alikatos that your fish did not die from starvation. Common sense tells me that if your fish is starved, it will lethargic and inactive before it finally dies. I had fish that did not eat in my tank for a long time and finally wasted away, not sudden death though. May be your fish suffered a heart attack. J/K.

 

[Johnsteph10]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7180610#post7180610 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by alikatoes

I think you are attacking your problems too aggressively and finding answers that satisfy you, not neccessarily the truth. I am still interested in seeing some pics of your fish before it died. Perhaps more information about tank mates, etc would help. One way or the other I am sure it is anybodys fault but your own, and you will have some grand explaination of how it all went down. I am excited to see what you discover next John.

Ok,

I apologized for flying off the handle earlier then you go and post something inflammatory like this, eh?

I only had the fish something like 2 months and I know that Warren did not have it for a long period. I think you mentioned catching it in November...and Warren must have gotten it sometime in early to mid January because he only had it a week or so at most before I got them (correct me if I'm wrong). Something doesn't add up.

Earlier in the thread, you mentioned holding them for a couple of weeks and not feeding them. You stated this yourself earlier in this thread.

Signs of chronic starvation don't show up like you think. Do a search on it and educate yourself rather than attack me or expect me to point it out for you.

I'll post pics when I get my necropsy pics sent to me - so I can post everything. It'll be a bit.

Why attack me like that when I am posting results of a scientific analysis done by professionals?

I think I've had enough of this - it is obvious that this thread is not going to go anywhere. I liked this fish and I'm hurt that it died but I wanted to both educate myself and others about why it died.

If you respond with any more posts like that, I will ask you not to post in my thread anymore.

Thank you and good day.

 

[cb747]

Ok i like both of you and i think your both on the defensive side of things. Lets all put that aside and learn from this experience. Alex maybe you can ship these slightly differently if anything mentioned makes sense. John in a MD so he knows more than most of us atleast pertaining to the human body. I see a great opportunity to learn from this experience. Plus im also taking into account that when things are written rather than spoken they can and alot of times are taken the wrong way.
Alex your a great diver with top notch service who actually cares and has a passion for what you do and John your a great Doc so put your 2 heads together on this and see what can be learned. It may end up surprizing both of you

 

[Justjoe]

Hello,
I think we're seeing another example of the written word and intent, and the intent has been lost via the internet.

I don't see any harm in the words written by Alex, but can see how they can be misunderstood.

I'm not a mod, but I do think it would be wise for a deep breath and to keep this going in a positive direction as much can be learned as we have very talented folks here.
Thanks,
Joe

 

[DgenR8]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7184399#post7184399 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Justjoe


I'm not a mod, but I do think it would be wise for a deep breath and to keep this going in a positive direction as much can be learned as we have very talented folks here.
Thanks,
Joe

Thank you Joe, I couldn't have said it better.

 

[alikatoes]

Perhaps we are getting a little too personal. I am sure it was a great fish. They are an amazing species. I didnt mean to attack you John, it just sounded like you were positive that your testing found the killer (a "collector" not feeding it). After reading about how positive you were about cyanide (and defending it for awhile) I think I may have gotten the impression that your evidence and conclusion's are some what conveinent. I was just trying to say that there is a bigger picture that I think you may be overlooking.
When observing zoozanthelle in microscope slides, a researcher sometimes loses perspective of the entire coral reef ecosystem, you know what I mean? This is not to say that the researchers work is useless, thats the farthest from the truth.
Anyway, I didnt mean to offend you. Just keep in mind that no conclusions are absolute in science and shouldnt be presented as so everytime you find something new. I admire how intuitive you have been in finding a cause, I just hope your not looking for blame. That is perhaps how I have misunderstood you.

Now that the Soap is done (hopefully) we can try getting back the topic. So generally, who keeps Crosshatch and has had problems/success?