My new 600 gallon reef
- Thread starter Goodwin9
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NanoReefaholic
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What the...
pH8.4 is the NAME OF A SALTWATER FORUM.
Here's my point...
Chuck I believe that you have misled the public as to the true health of your tank and even your own personal abilities. You simply have the cash to buy and replace whatever fish that you have killed, a list that you also REFUSE to post.
I've tried to give you the benefit of the doubt, after all it is your tank. However when you try to change the subject whenever someone asks for collaborating data or any other information that may be used against you the subject shifts. This very act makes you less than creditable and only puts more weight behind those that have pointed out your 'lies'. People that have tested your 470 which read 50ppm Nitrate and both the 470 AND 300 read OVER 2.0 ppm PO4.
I have asked you to post pictures of your coral and you have not. The pictures coming out of the box look nice as does the camera that's so far away (hint hint). Fish and coral usually look good when they first go in but coral tends to show how well it's being kept over time. Although coral is also less forgiving than fish if you can't keep them chances are you have no business keeping this style of 'reef'.
I'm done with you Chuck, and coming from me that takes alot. You obviously only care as far as your image is concerned. I know alot more about your personal details and the type of person you really are however this isn't the place. It's great that you have the money so you can do this however you're not one of the people that should.
Good luck.
pH8.4 is the NAME OF A SALTWATER FORUM.
Here's my point...
Chuck I believe that you have misled the public as to the true health of your tank and even your own personal abilities. You simply have the cash to buy and replace whatever fish that you have killed, a list that you also REFUSE to post.
I've tried to give you the benefit of the doubt, after all it is your tank. However when you try to change the subject whenever someone asks for collaborating data or any other information that may be used against you the subject shifts. This very act makes you less than creditable and only puts more weight behind those that have pointed out your 'lies'. People that have tested your 470 which read 50ppm Nitrate and both the 470 AND 300 read OVER 2.0 ppm PO4.
I have asked you to post pictures of your coral and you have not. The pictures coming out of the box look nice as does the camera that's so far away (hint hint). Fish and coral usually look good when they first go in but coral tends to show how well it's being kept over time. Although coral is also less forgiving than fish if you can't keep them chances are you have no business keeping this style of 'reef'.
I'm done with you Chuck, and coming from me that takes alot. You obviously only care as far as your image is concerned. I know alot more about your personal details and the type of person you really are however this isn't the place. It's great that you have the money so you can do this however you're not one of the people that should.
Good luck.
-----------------------------------------
Chuck,
Am really new in salt and have really enjoyed following your thread, as well as others, that do a good job of not only stating what you did, but what you were trying to accomplish and whether of not it ended up the way you expected/hoped.
These last few pages have sucked. There is no answer besides the one time gives. Then, as you said earlier, if there are changes or even problems you adjust and learn. Because you keep track here, many of us learn.
Hope you will keep to your last statement and drop the whole thing by not replying unless someone gets to a direct point. If I ran my business by asking coded questions that only I understand and challenging people as liars or cowards, I'd be out of business by Sept.
Like the last few people said, I love the web cams and getting to witness lots of the things you talk about. Thanks for keeping this documented, so I can learn now and even later when I have the experience to more fully involve myself at a larger level.
Good luck with the tanks....:thumbsup:
triggerfish1976
New member
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10536565#post10536565 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by clekchau
so there you have it, even the expert you referenced indicated although its not his preferred method of keeping an aquarium, it can and has been done successfully by many people. i'm sure goodwin9 is an easy target to you and atomikk but would you direct your same disdain to someone like bob fenner or wayne shang? if you do, please let me know their response
You're kidding me right.:lol: You're comparing a tank full of angels in Asia to what we are seeing here? Angels have a completely different social structure than tangs. They are also a roaming fish as opposed to free swimming open water fish like tangs. I have personally dove with many different angel species and have observed large Queen, French, Emperor, and Bluering Angels stay in a fairly confined area of a reef (by ocean standards) for a few hours as they picked at various inverts. In comparison I have swam with schools of PBT's off the coast of Thailand and we easily covered a 400 yards in under an hour as they swam in schools over the reef.
I specifically remember working at a LFS a few years back and we kept a big 8" Emperor Angel for over 5 months in a small cube as is typical with most store holding facilities. The Angel coped with the small confines until it was sold. Around the same time, the owner was trying to bring in Achilles Tangs and was lucky enough to find a good supplier that shipped healthy specimens. Given their reputation he decided to place them in the biggest holding tanks we had available at the time which where about 24"x24". Suffice it to say the cubes were not big enough and the fish wigged out and neurotically swam around the tank all day long until they all died from stress. Before you ask, we covered the sides of the tanks and did everything possible to try and make the fishes confines as stress free as possible. I have never bought an Achilles since this incident.
Many fish in both groups graze but Angels tend to stick closer to the reef whereas tangs are constantly swimming above the reef structure and can cover large amounts of area in a short period of time as they search for algae to graze on. Angels are also not as territorial as tangs when comparing the groups as a whole. A hobbyist will be more inclined to be able to keep multiple Angels together for a longer period of time without signs of territorial aggression.
That being said, I am of Chinese decent and I until a couple of years ago I had the opportunity to make trips to Thailand, Hong Kong and Japan every summer and I have seen many of these tanks first hand and spoken to numerous hobbyists in these Asian countries.
In an effort to not disrespect Fenner and his information but most of these overstocked Angelfish tanks are also not setup for as long as most are led to believe. Are there some that have been setup for more than a couple of years, yes but If you can find me a picture of a tank with "full grown" adult Pomacanthus or Holacanthus Angels then I will give you a lot of credit because when I visited these hobbyists I was hard pressed to find cases where they bought the fish as juveniles and grew them up to full adult size in these conditions or the limited space seriously stunted their overall growth which cannot be healthy. Most of the angels in these tanks appeared to be sub adults or females (Sexing Angels is much easier to than than tangs). I asked them how they are able to keep these fish together for so long and most of the tanks have usually only be setup for less than a couple of years. When a fish dies it is much easier to find large quality specimens in the major Asian Countries than it is for us in the US. Most of the people I spoke to also have an unattached approach to their fish. Having these beautiful specimens is more of a status symbol and they have no problems dropping tens of Thousands of dollars on a rare angel or replacing dead ones with similar specimens to give the perception that these fish never died. There is also a different level of husbandry that the Europeans and Asians apply to their tanks. These overstocked angel tangs are spotless and they are able to achieve SPS like parameters even with their fish only tanks. The same cannot be said about this tank, given the admitted problems Goodwin has stated.
In closing for the record, I have kept multiple Angels in a tank together for numerous years and never saw one sign of territorial aggression.
triggerfish1976
New member
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10538021#post10538021 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Goodwin9
Hmmm. Does anyone else think that these look like they were just introduced. Where is the encrusting around the base? What tank are these from?
NanoReefaholic: I have also been given the same information as you and I so wish that we could divulge the details because it would really shed a light on why we are both so adament about trying to educate all of the people who have blinders on. Oh well.
clekchau
Premium Member
its safe to say there we (well you guys especially) have almost ruined goodwin's thread, but i guess i will address a couple of your statements.
first and foremost, angels roam, yes, their territory can be several football fields, were you making a point for me that i missed?
for someone to put not one, not two but 10 or so in a smallish tank like a 200 and have them thrive for years and years is remarkable to me. you can :lol: all you want but since you have seen first hand these overstocked aquariums, did you not notice alot of these aquariums also had large tangs in them also ? :rolleye1: second, if you want an example of a hong kong aquarium that has been kept successfully for years (try over 10 years and counting) all you have to do is look at wayne shang's aquarium in "ultimate marine aquariums" by michael paletta. his 300 gallon aquarium which has full grown goldflake, griffis, emperor, blue line, queen, majestic, asfur, maculosus, french, scribbled, personifer, conspicillatus angels along with a trio of huge golden butterflies, and yes they are thriving and most have been for years.
also, his maintenance and equipment is no different than goodwin's with the exception of more live rock in his sump. you want to see a picture of a thriving hong style aquarium, go look at his in the book i mentioned, can i ask what more goodwin can do to meet your stringent requirements? how many european hong kong style overstocked aquariums did you run tests on to make your conclusions?
lastly, your claim that large angels are not territorally aggressive is laughable and to be blunt, makes me question how long you have been in the hobby. most angels do not tolerate other angels moreso than all but the meanest acanthurus tangs. in fact alot of online pet stores specifically do not recommend mixing large angels in their description. but wait, you must either know more than everyone else or you are some kind of... fish whisperer :lol:
steve the plumb
In Memoriam
you can just put them on your ignore list.Its as simple as a click away!Have a nice day goodwin
rogergolf66
im an addict lol
yes they have ruined the thread I am unsubscribing to it.
Roger
Roger
triggerfish1976
New member
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10538492#post10538492 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by clekchau
its safe to say there we (well you guys especially) have almost ruined goodwin's thread, but i guess i will address a couple of your statements.
first and foremost, angels roam, yes, their territory can be several football fields, were you making a point for me that i missed?
second, if you want an example of a hong kong aquarium that has been kept successfully for years (try over 10 years and counting) all you have to do is look at wayne shang's aquarium in "ultimate marine aquariums" by michael paletta. his 300 gallon aquarium which has full grown goldflake, griffis, emperor, blue line, queen, majestic, asfur, maculosus, french, scribbled, personifer, conspicillatus angels along with a trio of huge golden butterflies, and yes they are thriving and most have been for years.
also, his maintenance and equipment is no different than goodwin's with the exception of more live rock in his sump. you want to see a picture of a thriving hong style aquarium, go look at his in the book i mentioned, can i ask what more goodwin can do to meet your stringent requirements? how many european hong kong style overstocked aquariums did you run tests on to make your conclusions?
lastly, your claim that large angels are not territorally aggressive is laughable and to be blunt, makes me question how long you have been in the hobby. most angels do not tolerate other angels moreso than all but the meanest acanthurus tangs. in fact alot of online pet stores specifically do not recommend mixing large angels in their description. but wait, you must either know more than everyone else or you are some kind of... fish whisperer :lol:
You just keep getting funnier and funnier. To compare Goodwin to Wayne is a joke. First off Wayne is does not live in HK. He lives in CA and I have met him a couple of years back at one of the shows where he was speaking. Wayne has been keeping saltwater tanks for close to 20 years and is one of the most achomplished hobbyist in the industry, Goodwin as been doing it for three and has shown that he still has a lot to learn and has even admitted to that.
You're also still not comparing apples to apples with this whole Angelfish comparison. Regardless of what your limited experience tells you, large angelfish can be kept together, Wayne has proven along with other hobbyists. You and Goodwin still haven't provided any back to substantiate what he is doing will work in the long run.
Lastly, I think its funny how Goodwin has been unable to provide his own backup and has some other person who has read a few books fighting his battles for him. It just goes to show how inexperienced he is.
triggerfish1976
New member
To clarify, I didn't say that as an absolute. I said that most are not as territorial but again you like twisting words to try and prove your point. I suggest you actual bring some personal experiences to the table instead of continuing to twist around things you have read.
For the record, you have contributed just as much as myself and other in taking this thread off track with your pointless comparisons.
clekchau
Premium Member
this is getting sad now, english might be your second language but the comprehension is getting ridiculous. i said hong kong STYLE aquarium, that doesn't mean a person has to live in hong kong to have one, i'm not sure how else to break it down for you.
of course large angelfish can be kept "hong kong style" in lockeroom conditions where aggression is minimized aka african cichlid aquariums, tangs can be kept this way also. that doesn't mean large angels are not territorial and aggressive especially to other large angels. are you sure you were keeping saltwater angelfish and not freshwater?
lastly, goodwin has posted pics, has a webcam, answered all questions and you and your friends continue to ruin his thread all in the name of some secret that noone will yet divulge, seriously, please tell us this secret or please leave the thread. the cloak and dagger bs is annoying.
clekchau
Premium Member
personal experience, i kept angels, tangs, triggers, wrasses, etc for a long long time (over 20 years when reverse flow undergravel filters and fake corals were the rage)
i can say with 100% certainty that large angelfish are one of the most territorial fish when it comes to other large angelfish. can it be done? sure i've done it myself but for you to suggest that large angels are not that aggressive to other large angels compared to tangs is the stuff dreams are made of :lol:
triggerfish1976
New member
Well then how do you explain how multiple people including ourselves have been able to keep large angels together but no one has or even dares keep 30 or anything close to that many in a 600 gallon tank. Sounds like they can be less aggressive to me.
triggerfish1976
New member
Sorry double post again
clekchau
Premium Member
the same way multiple tangs can be kept, try to introduce at the same time, feed heavily, rearrange rockwork, put a mirror, let time dwindle aggression, keep different sizes etc etc etc
the hong kong style aquariums i am referring to look like this:
if you want to discuss this in a civil manner feel free to pm me, my apologies goodwin for messing up your thread.
triggerfish1976
New member
Like I said previously we are not talking about angels. We are talking about Tangs so I don't know why you keep pushing the angel compatibility comparison, I think we have proved that large angels are not as territorial as you think, thats for the backup. I honestly don't need you to PM me to discuss further since you are unable to provide the justification that several of us have sorely requested and I doubt you will be able to produce this but if I am wrong I'll be happy to continue to debate and we can contribute to keeping this thread off topic if you like.
clekchau
Premium Member
geez, angels AND tangs are not territorial when crammed in lockerroom conditions, did you not read my post at all? honestly i don't want you to pm me anyways because you probably wouldnt' understand what i'm trying to convey based on how you have been reading my threads.
what type of justification are you looking for from goodwin7 since he has provided water parameters, pictures, a webcam and answered all questions. do you need dna? sheesh
what type of justification are you looking for from goodwin7 since he has provided water parameters, pictures, a webcam and answered all questions. do you need dna? sheesh
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