N/P reducing pellets (solid vodka dosing) - Split

[tntneon]

Isn't it great when questions only bring on more questions?

I am not sure there is one right answer, these products haven't worked exactly the same in everyone's tank. Some had zero nutrient reduction with them, others had bacterial blooms, heavy cyano, white bacterial masses covering the rock and tank, etc. Some of us have had them work exactly as liquid carbon, so I am not sure we will ever nail down a perfect formula for success.

+1 ,

-If thicker layers of bactria would exist in the outer layer of slowmoving pellets , and with more CO2 would build up in these layers , wouldn't that be the limiting factor for bacterial growth .
In other words , do we not want the excesive CO2 to be removed ?
With more flow.

-I just changed my pellet reactor it is now a longer , but smaller in diameter concical vaze.
Due to this form i now have much faster movement , the only difference is that the reactor bottom is clean no detrius or others keep behind in the reactor , the tank looks the same , healthy and clear water

greetingzz tntneon

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

+1 ,

-If thicker layers of bactria would exist in the outer layer of slowmoving pellets , and with more CO2 would build up in these layers , wouldn't that be the limiting factor for bacterial growth .
In other words , do we not want the excesive CO2 to be removed ?
With more flow.

Low pH might mean pH 7 or 6. That's a fine pH for bacterial growth, and if it means more food is released, that may be good.

I'm not certain about pellets, but the ester groups that are breaking down are acid catalyzed when present in dissolved molecules, and so each full pH unit below pH 7 means a factor of 10 increase in hydrolysis rate.

They may also be base catalyzed, in which case every full pH unit above pH 7 can mean a factor of 10 increase in hydrolysis rate.

So it isn't clear what pH is "optimal".

 

[cherubfish pair]

+1 ,

-If thicker layers of bactria would exist in the outer layer of slowmoving pellets , and with more CO2 would build up in these layers , wouldn't that be the limiting factor for bacterial growth .
In other words , do we not want the excesive CO2 to be removed ?
With more flow.

greetingzz tntneon

BTW, is there a hobbyist CO2 test kit?

 

[bertoni]

No, there's no useful carbon dioxide test kit for saltwater. You can get a meter, I think, but they are quite pricey, as I recall.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

CO2 is easily determined by knowing the pH and the carbonate alkalinity. If pH is low, CO2 is high, etc.

 

[Aquarist007]

Great discussion gentlemen:beer:

Could you not measure the pH of the water leaving the reactor and use that measurement to determine the effectiveness of the pellets and reactor?

 

[Aquarist007]

Yes, more live rock can help denitrification, and adding organic carbon can as well, since that process may be carbon limited in many cases.

There may be many reasons to set a particular flow, but I'm not sure exactly how denitrification relates to flow. To much flow through sediments may make the water never become anaerobic, but a little will help bring organics and nitrate into the right areas.

This brings us back to the basic delima of whether to use carbon dosing eg vodka or polymers in a reactor

I was always taught to keep the flow low in a rock refugium to give the bacteria a chance to work on the water column.

 

[Aquarist007]

So you mean no oxygen correct. Is there a positve to having the pellets tumble or do you believe that it might have a negitive effect, Or do you not know.
Do these pellets work better in or out of a reactor. Will they still work to any effect in a overflo box.

Bugger,
an anerobic area is an area low in oxygen
an anoxic area is an area devoid of oxygen
The strains of bacteria we are referring to here in the nitrogen cycle can't survive in an anoxic area

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

This brings us back to the basic delima of whether to use carbon dosing eg vodka or polymers in a reactor

I was always taught to keep the flow low in a rock refugium to give the bacteria a chance to work on the water column.

While my refugia naturally have low flow, I cannot imagine that the bacteria would not grow well in higher flow around the rocks. On live rock, they can get into pores and such where flow is lower, if they want to.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Great discussion gentlemen:beer:

Could you not measure the pH of the water leaving the reactor and use that measurement to determine the effectiveness of the pellets and reactor?

Maybe, but I doubt the effect is large enough to accurately detect the difference unless the flow is quite slow.

 

[KingAmir]

Hi Randy Holmes-Farley,

I'm a BIG fan of vinegar dosing. Currently i'm experienced Good Nitrate and Phosphate reduction in my tank. BUT, My Question is, i've reach to a point which is My Phosphate is 0 ppm but i still gt excess nitrate in my tank 1-2ppm. What does it means?

My undestanding is, Bacteria will digest - Vinegar + Nitrate and Phosphate. When the Phosphate is undetectable but Nitrate still spike, is it possible with further addition of vinegar it will reduce Nitrate? :headwally:

Thx in advance.

 

[bertoni]

Our measurement equipment has limited accuracy, so it's possible that dosing will reduce the nitrate further even if the phosphate is undetectable. Another issue is that organisms might be able to get phosphorus from sources other than phosphate.

 

[KingAmir]

Our measurement equipment has limited accuracy, so it's possible that dosing will reduce the nitrate further even if the phosphate is undetectable. Another issue is that organisms might be able to get phosphorus from sources other than phosphate.

Thx Bertoni.

Your opinion could make sense on this matter. But, Do u know or even can find a literature review on "what baceria that has been cultivated" in major vinegar carbon source?

 

[bertoni]

I've never seen anything like that. You could try the various online aquarium magazines, I guess.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Hi Randy Holmes-Farley,

I'm a BIG fan of vinegar dosing. Currently i'm experienced Good Nitrate and Phosphate reduction in my tank. BUT, My Question is, i've reach to a point which is My Phosphate is 0 ppm but i still gt excess nitrate in my tank 1-2ppm. What does it means?

My undestanding is, Bacteria will digest - Vinegar + Nitrate and Phosphate. When the Phosphate is undetectable but Nitrate still spike, is it possible with further addition of vinegar it will reduce Nitrate? :headwally:

.

Yes, vinegar will generally lower nitrate more than phosphate and the ratio is not fixed.

Howe are you testing phosphate?

 

[KingAmir]

Yes, vinegar will generally lower nitrate more than phosphate and the ratio is not fixed.

Howe are you testing phosphate?

Thx Randy,

I send my water to LFS here in Malaysia. He do check phosphate for me using Hanna Checker and the Nitrate using DD Solution. I hope, i day i can get undetectable nitrate.
FYI, i am using Deltec APF600 Skimming, and the result was very good dark & more bubble in skimmate.But, now my maintenance dosage already reach 40ml daily vinegar.
I do not see any negative impact in my tank, since all my coral and sps were doing ok.I need ur opinion ABOUT my maintenance and my NP reading randy. It is weird i reach UNDETECTABLE PHOSPHATE but still get excess NITRATE.

 

[Bugger]

Why not gt the best of both world! dose the vinegar and use he pellets. Its highly unlikely that the pellets can compete with all the surface area that the bacteria can grow on in your tank threw venegar dosing. No.
btw Im new to this and can you tell me how much venegar is to be dosed. my tan is 100gal

 

[KingAmir]

Why not gt the best of both world! dose the vinegar and use he pellets. Its highly unlikely that the pellets can compete with all the surface area that the bacteria can grow on in your tank threw venegar dosing. No.
btw Im new to this and can you tell me how much venegar is to be dosed. my tan is 100gal

Hi Bugger, you should read and understand carbon dosing approach to reduce NP in ur tank.Pls visit this link http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-08/nftt/index.php EVERY tank is different. I guess it is counter productive TO run Biopellets and vinegar dosing at the same time.

 

[Aquarist007]

Hi Bugger, you should read and understand carbon dosing approach to reduce NP in ur tank.Pls visit this link http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-08/nftt/index.php EVERY tank is different. I guess it is counter productive TO run Biopellets and vinegar dosing at the same time.

It's not conterproductive but generally not advised because you are adding another carbon source, increasing the bacteria and chance a bacterial bloom breaking out in your system.
However with an excellent protein skimmer it is possible
I have a few tanks that I maintain where the owners have insisted in overstocking. In those cases where the nitrates and there is physically no more room for live rock I have added two reactors of pellets. This has reduced the nitrates and not caused any problems with excess bacteria

 

[KingAmir]

It's not conterproductive but generally not advised because you are adding another carbon source, increasing the bacteria and chance a bacterial bloom breaking out in your system.
However with an excellent protein skimmer it is possible
I have a few tanks that I maintain where the owners have insisted in overstocking. In those cases where the nitrates and there is physically no more room for live rock I have added two reactors of pellets. This has reduced the nitrates and not caused any problems with excess bacteria

I Agree with u,

The key here is "POWERFUL SKIMMER" to skim out dead bacteria and organic compound.