N/P reducing pellets (solid vodka dosing)

[jlinzmaier]

I think the lack of PO4 is the problem in a lot of these cases of bp not reducing nitrate. Its a balancing act. You have to have some PO4 for the bacteria to proliferate. I think I have this problem so I am gonna bite the bullet and turn off GFO. Hopefully this does'nt bite me in the a**.

I think it's a fair guess that in Dave's situation the low po4 could be problematic, but there can be strong arguement that there is still enough po4 to aid in bacterial proliferation for nutrient reduction. If he has any algae growing his po4 isn't 0. Most po4 kits are only fair, at best, in getting accurate results in the low range. Even a hanna po4 meter isn't spectacularly accurate in very low ranges of po4. It's my understanding that bacteria will outcompete and more aggressively utilize and uptake po4 quicker and easier than algea can. That's why algea will die off when carbon dosing is implemented - the bacteria are simply outcompeting the algae for nutrients. Will Dave get better results if he stops the GFO and allows for more po4 to be available? Maybe, however, the fact that he has any algea growth leads me to confidently say that there is enough po4 present for bacterial proliferation to continue. If he had no algae growth and/or the algea had died off then I might be more inclined to indicate that the bacterial growth was po4 limited. Regardless, since the implementation of using the BP's as a carbon source has increased in popularity, it would be a good experiment to stop the GFO and observe the response that's generated.

Earlier in this thread people had stated that the BP's were great in reducing nitrates but not as effective in removing po4. In fact, I belive it was even commented that manufacturers were trying to re-design the BP's to be more effective at reducing po4.


Jeremy

 

[daveonbass]

what GFO?!...is no one reading my posts. For the last time...i run nothing else...just the BP. I have never run GFO...and in all my years I have never gotten the PO4 test to read anything other than zero...all the kits new and old read zero. I'm not saying it IS zero...i know there is probably some PO4, but not enough to register. I can't stop using GFO, cause I never have. All I have is live rock, live sand, water, a skimmer, and the BP (now rice). That's it. I can only add stuff at this point. I dosed MB7 twice...nothing happened. Algae growth in non existent. That is to say it's not "growing"...it just stays the same. (nor does it receede)

I'm not getting any results with rice either. I do feel it's from lack of PO4. Either something is very wrong with my tank, or something is very right...cause PO4 is not registering even on the new tank that has 160ppm NO3. That tank too reads zero PO4.

 

[bertoni]

I was responding to paraletho.

 

[HighlandReefer]

daveonbass,

Perhaps you have stated this somewhere before, but what test kit are you using for phosphate and how old is it? Perhaps the test kit is not reading correctly.

 

[daveonbass]

I was talking to "jlinzmaier"...

yes I've repeatedly stated that the test were from both old and new API tests. Not the best...but both old and new give the same results. For NO3 and PO4.

 

[bluereefs]

Is quite odd how Dave have similar issue as I had.
I also had and have again high nitrate but zero phosphate (0 acording to Salifert test kit) no algae, my corals and aquarium actualy look quite good IMO, I try with vodka but no succes, I try with vodka and bio pellets (up to 12 ml of vodka and 2500 ml of bp) without succes, I do had succes latter with bp in my diy reactor but untill that I do everything for months to lower the nitrate without much succes. I do not use gfo either and tested nitrate and phosphate with 2,3 test kits, all salifert.

 

[HighlandReefer]

If both of you have extremely low phosphate levels with lots of coral, perhaps your bacteria are phosphate limited. Bacteria do need other nutrients as well, there could be other elemets that are limited as well. You would think heavy metals would be in high supply, although iron may be limiting for example.


Oceanography:
Carbon vs. iron limitation of bacterial growth..............
http://www.aslo.org/lo/toc/vol_45/issue_8/1681.pdf

From it:

Abstract
The importance of iron versus dissolved organic carbon (DOC) in limiting the growth of heterotrophic bacteria
is unresolved, even though iron, DOC, and heterotrophic bacteria are recognized to be critical components of oceanic
biogeochemical cycles and food web dynamics. We used enrichment experiments to examine the roles of organic
carbon and iron in limiting bacterial growth in the California upwelling regime, where phytoplankton can be iron
limited depending on the time and location of the upwelling-induced phytoplankton bloom. In no-addition controls
and in incubations with added Fe, bacterial production and abundance did not change substantially over time. In
contrast, in all eight experiments, addition of glucose alone stimulated bacterial production and growth rates as
much as tenfold. In Fe-replete areas (.1 nM), bacterial production and growth rates in glucose plus Fe treatments
were similar to those incubations receiving only glucose. However, in low-Fe regions, addition of glucose plus Fe
enhanced bacterial production and growth rates significantly more than glucose alone. We were unable to detect
any impact of iron on glucose and amino acid catabolism, and the data offer no support for the hypothesis that
bacteria are colimited by Fe and DOC. Rather, these results suggest that growth of heterotrophic bacteria is limited
primarily by organic carbon even in Fe-poor waters, but when DOC limitation is relieved Fe may rapidly become
a limiting factor.

 

[bluereefs]

Thank you for the explanation HighlandReefer, IMO in my case my issue with the vodka and bp are not due to water chemistry because after I transfered bio pellets to my diy reactor I get bacterial bloom and nitrates drop to 0,2, from 100. For some unknowen reason I could not get bio pellets to work in normal fluidized reactors, samme issue as Dave have/had. I also could not get them down with vodka, but because I get bacterial bloom with diy reactor, without changes in water chemistry there must be something else, IMO. If bacteria was phosphate limited in my aquarium I will not get bacterial bloom and nitrate reduction with my diy reactor just second day after I transfer bp from fluid reactor (where they work for months) to diy reactor.

 

[HighlandReefer]

If a tank has an initial high amount of dissolved organics tied with P, the bacteria can use the dissolved organic P to form a bacterial bloom, even with extremely low phosphate. After the bloom is over, I would assume that the organic P is greatly reduced. The test kits only measure inorganic phosphate. After the bloom your tank would then have low levels of organic P and phosphate which would mean your tank could be P limited for bacteria (and cyano).

The organic P comes into play when you are fighting cyano, since cyano as well as bacteria can use organic P. Algae for the most part can't utilize organic P well, but some species do. Perhaps we should be using total P test kits more, but would need to determine some kind of a base line for reef tanks.

 

[HighlandReefer]

FWIW, the dissolved organic P can play a role in how well corals do. Too much of the organic P or phosphate both seem to cause problems for coral. Coral do have symbiotic bacteria in their tissues as well as the surrounding mucal layers in addition to the dinos/algae (which IIFC, can't use the organic P like algae). What can happen if the organic P is too high & phosphate is low, the bacteria within the coral can out grow the algae and secret toxic chemicals which leads to tissue death (necrosis) or it could result in bacterial populations that can utilize organic P better. This could also account for color changes in the coral since the bacterial population grow faster and contribute greater to their end of the total coloration of the coral. So if a hobbyist is looking for color changes, adding or reducing organic P can play a role both negatively and positively depending on the current organic P level.

 

[jlinzmaier]

what GFO?!...is no one reading my posts. For the last time...i run nothing else...just the BP. I have never run GFO...and in all my years I have never gotten the PO4 test to read anything other than zero...all the kits new and old read zero. I'm not saying it IS zero...i know there is probably some PO4, but not enough to register. I can't stop using GFO, cause I never have. All I have is live rock, live sand, water, a skimmer, and the BP (now rice). That's it. I can only add stuff at this point. I dosed MB7 twice...nothing happened. Algae growth in non existent. That is to say it's not "growing"...it just stays the same. (nor does it receede)

I'm not getting any results with rice either. I do feel it's from lack of PO4. Either something is very wrong with my tank, or something is very right...cause PO4 is not registering even on the new tank that has 160ppm NO3. That tank too reads zero PO4.

I was talking to "jlinzmaier"...

yes I've repeatedly stated that the test were from both old and new API tests. Not the best...but both old and new give the same results. For NO3 and PO4.

Dear God! My sincere apologies. Merely trying to help. I thought you were using GFO. There's only a few dozen people posting on this thread and I'm obviously mistaken in thinking you were running GFO.

Jeremy

 

[Genetics]

daveonbass, I'm sorry if you've posted this before but how does multiple water changes fair with reducing your nitrates? With 60g of water a 20% water change should decrease the nitrates from 160 to ~130ppm. Have you tried this and then measured to see if your nitrates reduce accordingly?

 

[HighlandReefer]

Good point Nate.

When nitrates get high, it is difficult to see any drop when using a carbon source. It could easily take a month to even detect a nitrate drop when at that level and I'm not sure how accurate hobby grade kits are at those levels.

 

[trueperc]

Help! I am started using these about two weeks now and my reactor is now become a nitrite(not a typo) producer. I have 3lt and have it tumbling. I had a mj 1200 but reduce to a 600 as I thought it was to much flow. Any thoughts. Now my nitrates before where 40 ppm that is why I am using so much. Please help as my tank is not happy. Should I reduce the flow more. I have them in this diy dual stage reactor that orginally has sulfur media in it. I have thought about moving the pellets to the second stage and putting back the sulfur media in the first stage.

 

[DJREEF]

Dear God! My sincere apologies. Merely trying to help. I thought you were using GFO. There's only a few dozen people posting on this thread and I'm obviously mistaken in thinking you were running GFO.

Jeremy

Forgive him. Dave is kind of wound up about all of this. He's been through a lot with this whole nitrate reduction thing.

DJ

 

[jh2pizza]

what GFO?!...is no one reading my posts. For the last time...i run nothing else...just the BP. I have never run GFO...and in all my years I have never gotten the PO4 test to read anything other than zero...all the kits new and old read zero. I'm not saying it IS zero...i know there is probably some PO4, but not enough to register. I can't stop using GFO, cause I never have. All I have is live rock, live sand, water, a skimmer, and the BP (now rice). That's it. I can only add stuff at this point. I dosed MB7 twice...nothing happened. Algae growth in non existent. That is to say it's not "growing"...it just stays the same. (nor does it receede)

So,.......... Are you saying you do not have GFO?

 

[cherubfish pair]

I'm only on page 50 of this thread but it's very exciting and I'm researching reactors. What reactors would be good for a 33 gallon tank? Does BRS have a bio pellet reactor and what is the capacity? I can't find info on their reactor anywhere. Is there another small reactor somewhere?

 

[daveonbass]

tiz true...I'm on "edge" over this stuff. NOT because my nitrates are still not changing...i can force them down with WC's. But I'm mad cause they simply didn't work. I spent good money on something that didn't deliver. That's where I get mad. Plus my tank is set up to be simple. And the pellets were supposed to be an easy way to dose instead of vodka. And yet nothing has worked.

as far as the water changes go. I had NO3 levels of 80ppm. I then did three 50% water changes. My sump is small, so the 50% was determined by waking half te water out of the main display tank...thats all. I did one in the morning, then made more salt...then one in the evening. It went from 80ppm to 40ppm that morning, then 40ppm to 20ppm that evening. I made up more water that night, and had to wait till my next day off. Two days later I did the third WC and the NO3 went from 20ppm to 10ppm. It has been weeks since then, and yes I'm due for another WC, but I'd really like to see the reactor work first. NO3 has gone up now to what I guess is 15ppm, though the API kits are hard to read.

 

[daveonbass]

sorry double post...

 

[cherubfish pair]

I'm only on page 50 of this thread but it's very exciting and I'm researching reactors. What reactors would be good for a 33 gallon tank? Does BRS have a bio pellet reactor and what is the capacity? I can't find info on their reactor anywhere. Is there another small reactor somewhere?

Okay, just did a search on this thread, there's a LOT of BRS reactor info here!