N/P reducing pellets (solid vodka dosing)

[Rwpdunne]

would it be worth checking the po4 and no3 of the water comming out of the reactor to see if thrtr is a differance in this and the tank water??

 

[bertoni]

You could try that, but I suspect the amount of phosphate and nitrate removed in a single pass is fairly small. I could be wrong, though.

 

[saltyliving]

I think that I'd run the reactor from the sump, back into the sump, in that situation. If you were good with plumbing, you might be able to T the tank overflow into the reactor and then T back into the skimmer input, but I have no idea how to do that.

this is the way my sump is set up. overflow into filter sock-chamber with skimmer-chamber with LR rubble-return chamber w/ pump that feeds reactor-reactor-out flow of reactor next to skimmer intake.

Does that make sense

I went ahead and added more pellets and skimmer is bubbling out clear skimmate again(thats what happen added when i first added the pellets). I will see what happens in the next couple day

 

[Tony Romano]

interesting side note. Now that my QT tank is mimicing kernnall's design, just a big cup with them, the tank is ALREADY cloudy. I'm starting to think (may be premature) that the reactor I had with small diameter inlet and outlet was the cause of my failure...not enough flow. For 3 months everyone kept saying to give them less flow...and maybe they just needed more. Sadly that would require spending MORE MONEY on a new reactor that has larger fittings.

Frustrating isn't it? I've been struggling with this crap for years. I bet you are actually very close to good #s. How big is your system? How many fish? I have figured out in my cast I am way over the top for nutrients due to nonphotosythic corals and many fish.

Make a reactor out of PVC...or old Calcium reactor.

 

[daveonbass]

nah turns out I just kicked up a bunch of stuff while trying to fine tune the flow. Nothings happened to the numbers in that tank. Still 160 nitrates.

 

[bertoni]

this is the way my sump is set up. overflow into filter sock-chamber with skimmer-chamber with LR rubble-return chamber w/ pump that feeds reactor-reactor-out flow of reactor next to skimmer intake.

I'm not quite sure what you mean, but I think it's likely fine.

 

[tozzi]

Put them in a large mesh bag pond bag and drop them in your overflow. It sounds like you have a pretty ideal setup for doing this on the cheap.

DJ

Good idea but unfortunatly i have a glass holes overflowbox so i cant fit anything in it. Yeah i have the tank on first floor and the sump in my basement so the overflow goes right in to my deltec skimmer. Deltec actually recommends for this skimmer to be gravity fed like this right from the overflow.
I know your suppose to put the reactor right by the skimmer intake, but wouldnt the skimmer only catch a small part of the bacteria on the first pass anyway? once most of it makes it past your skimmer on the first pass its going in to your display. Just a thought.

 

[euromomtx]

I just had a thought on the previously mention in-tank bacterial bloom.

(actually I was being lazy and recreated it in my tank)
I am setting up a new tank. Broke the return pump while setting up the plumbing but wanted to start running it.
So I 'borrowed' the pump that feeds my skimmer to use as a return pump until the replacement comes in.
Figuring it takes 1-2 weeks for the pellets to colonize with bacteria I set up the pellet reactor for the new tank Monday knowing I wouldn't have the skimmer running until Thursday (4 days).
Well it didn't take the pellets that long to get bacteria.
Tank has been cloudy for the last 24 hours but here's my thoughts on this:

I've been watching the pH go down significantly. Couldn't the cloudiness be due to the the buffers struggling to keep pH up?
On the old tank I had the skimmer on all the time but I bet there's still stuff that bypassed it.
Could the cloudy tank some people experience be more of a symptom of pH dropping rather than a real bacterial bloom?

 

[sirreal63]

I think the ph drops because of the lack of dissolved oxygen, which is why the skimmer is important. It does help with aeration.

 

[euromomtx]

Yes I absolutely agree, Jack.

I was referring to some earlier posts about people experiencing what seemed to be a bacterial bloom in the tank after introducing BP.

I am now wondering if in fact it was not a bacterial bloom in the tank after all but rather some indication of insufficient aeration.
I did never intent to run them without a skimmer. Just figured they wouldn't kick in as fast as they did and I'd get a little grace period...

The photos posted of bacterial blooms just looked exactly like my tank struggling with the pH drop.
Both of course would be pellet related - just different explanations.

My thought was really more along the lines of:
maybe what appears to be a bacterial bloom in some tanks really is not a bacterial bloom at all but rather the typical cloudy tank syndrom when buffer is struggling to keep up.

That's all.
I thought I'd mention it in case it would clear up some questions (such as why do some people experience that 'bacterial bloom' and most others don't)

Based on my experience I would guess insufficient aeration could be a possible explanation for cloudy tank after NP pellet introduction

 

[bluereefs]

I just had a thought on the previously mention in-tank bacterial bloom.

(actually I was being lazy and recreated it in my tank)
I am setting up a new tank. Broke the return pump while setting up the plumbing but wanted to start running it.
So I 'borrowed' the pump that feeds my skimmer to use as a return pump until the replacement comes in.
Figuring it takes 1-2 weeks for the pellets to colonize with bacteria I set up the pellet reactor for the new tank Monday knowing I wouldn't have the skimmer running until Thursday (4 days).
Well it didn't take the pellets that long to get bacteria.
Tank has been cloudy for the last 24 hours but here's my thoughts on this:

I've been watching the pH go down significantly. Couldn't the cloudiness be due to the the buffers struggling to keep pH up?
On the old tank I had the skimmer on all the time but I bet there's still stuff that bypassed it.
Could the cloudy tank some people experience be more of a symptom of pH dropping rather than a real bacterial bloom?

Not in my case, I have very strong skimmer who push loots of air, also strong return pump, even during worse bacterial bloom my pH did not drop bellow 8,1 so in my case pH did not made bacterial bloom. What made issue more weird is that I could not get bp to work in normal reactor at 3 aquariums, but in same time same bp create bacterial bloom almost instantly with DIY reactor so that remove all water chemistry problem and strings that bacterial bloom in my case are related with ph, no phosphates high nitrates, kh,... whatever otherwise I will get bacterial bloom with normal fluid reactor. And what made issue even more weird is that my friends get bacterial bloom with the reactor what was not working for me (same reactor, I sold them after they was not good for me) so that remove the option that wrong reactor design are responsible for non functional bp. I think the person who will figoure out what is going on with the bp will get Nobel prize, for me all that dont have a sense, no logic (talking about my expirience with the bp).

 

[euromomtx]

Oh that's a bummer. Thought I was on to something... not! LOL

It will be fun to eventually know what's the difference!

Like Dave's not taking off after months of trying and I already have new bacterial slime in my reactor with pellets that are only 4 days in water!

 

[sirreal63]

I know your tank activates them very well, I made a temporary reactor out of a Black Diamond container with a MJ 1200 and washed your old ones off very well, it took just a few days for them to slime back up and yesterday my skimmer started putting out more than it has in a long time. I never got a bacteria bloom, never have, I have dosed sugar, vodka (in tank and reefkeeper), vinegar and never have I had a bloom. It makes it kind of hard to help people with theirs, but I do know that when people first started with sugar, their were pics of some wild blooms.

As far as aeration and gas exchange, I think as much if not more happens at the water surface than from our skimmers, provided there is good surface agitation. I have no clue why the pellets activate for some and not others, maybe a little sugar to jump start the bacteria is better than MB7?

 

[bluereefs]

Oh that's a bummer. Thought I was on to something... not! LOL

It will be fun to eventually know what's the difference!

Like Dave's not taking off after months of trying and I already have new bacterial slime in my reactor with pellets that are only 4 days in water!

LOL same issue with my sold reactor, after he was for months in my aquariums without doing anything, person who buy him get bacterial bloom after 2-3 days, with less bp on bigger aquarium (just for the record, I tested various options with the reactor until I sold him, more bp, less bp, more flow, less flow, nothing helped) I still have in use one non functional reactor with 1000 ml of bp who oficially jet do nothing, I dont have a clue why I still use him, maybe looking for miracle LOL ...

 

[DJREEF]

Oh that's a bummer. Thought I was on to something... not! LOL

It will be fun to eventually know what's the difference!

Like Dave's not taking off after months of trying and I already have new bacterial slime in my reactor with pellets that are only 4 days in water!

I think what you're referring to is a precipitation event where CaCO3 falls out of solution. This happens when buffers and calcium are too high, kind of the other way around from what you were describing. These blooms are not those. They are actual bacterial blooms. Mine haven't been that severe, but you can still smell them in the room, and you can damn sure smell them when you change the skimmer cup.

DJ

 

[bertoni]

Oxygen doesn't affect the pH. It's fairly common for a tank to be fully saturated with oxygen, yet have a low pH. Carbon dioxide will lower the pH.

 

[GPhiAce]

Oxygen doesn't affect the pH. It's fairly common for a tank to be fully saturated with oxygen, yet have a low pH. Carbon dioxide will lower the pH.

Do you mean that Oxygen does not decrease your pH? I thought oxygenating water to increase the pH is the the main purpose of having a 2nd chamber on a calcium reactor. The carbon dioxide is turned into carbonic acid when it enters the water which lowers the pH and by adding oxygen to the water, the carbonic acid is turned back into carbon dioxide and is released into the air. Please correct me if I am wrong.

I also thought the skimmer was important (in vodka dosing) to oxygenate the water and skim the bacteria and other crap. But I may be wrong again.

 

[daveonbass]

LOL same issue with my sold reactor, after he was for months in my aquariums without doing anything, person who buy him get bacterial bloom after 2-3 days, with less bp on bigger aquarium (just for the record, I tested various options with the reactor until I sold him, more bp, less bp, more flow, less flow, nothing helped) I still have in use one non functional reactor with 1000 ml of bp who oficially jet do nothing, I dont have a clue why I still use him, maybe looking for miracle LOL ...

I'm with you. I would love to know why some situations "don't" work more than I'd like to know how the other ones do. If I had used them and all worked out great then I wouldn't be as pessimistic about these random non-working sitiuations. But I am cause they don't work for me.
not to hijack...but the rice that I'm now using has yet to give any real results either. Only difference is that the rice is making my skimmer work well at pulling out nasty gunk. BP's never did...

so the question is weather or not ANY of these methods will work in my tank. And if not, then what is wrong with my system that inhibits the use of solid dosing.

what priduct should I try next.

 

[bertoni]

Do you mean that Oxygen does not decrease your pH? I thought oxygenating water to increase the pH is the the main purpose of having a 2nd chamber on a calcium reactor.

Oxygen doesn't affect the pH at all. Skimmers are great for adding oxygen, and that's important, since animals need to breathe, but oxygen doesn't change pH.

The second chamber in a calcium reactor can help raise pH, but it doesn't do oxygenation. It allows more carbon dioxide to dissolve and combine with the reactor media, which raises the pH.

 

[euromomtx]

Okay. Explain this some more then:

Causes of Low pH Problems
...
3. The aquarium has more CO2 in it than the surrounding air due to inadequate aeration. Don't be fooled into thinking that an aquarium must have adequate aeration because its water is very turbulent. Equilibrating carbon dioxide is MUCH harder than simply providing adequate oxygen. There would be NO change in the pH between day and night if equilibration of carbon dioxide were perfect. Since most aquaria have lower pH during the night, they also are demonstrating less than complete aeration.

The Aeration Test

Some of the possibilities listed above require some effort to diagnose. Problems 3 and 4 are quite common, and here is a way to distinguish them. Remove a cup of tank water and measure the pH. Then aerate it for an hour with an airstone using outside air. The pH should rise if the pH is unusually low for the measured alkalinity, as in Figure 3 (if it does not rise, most likely one of the measurements (pH or alkalinity) is in error). Then repeat the same experiment on a new cup of water using inside air. If the pH rises there too, then the aquarium pH will rise with more aeration because it is only the aquarium that contains excess carbon dioxide. If the pH does not rise inside (or rises very little), then the inside air contains excess CO2, and more aeration with that same air will not solve the low pH problem (although aeration with fresher air should).

From here: http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-09/rhf/index.php