N/P reducing pellets (solid vodka dosing)

[Stuart60611]

I certainly know that my skimmer is going ape-doodoo as a result of the liveliness of said bacteria. I couldn't imagine it working any harder with bacterial corpses, but then I don't have the means to check that theory. Why should I, everything is working well the way it is.

DJ

I agree that there is no practical way that I am aware of to verify whether ozone or UV kills any meaningful amount of bacterial mass sluffed off the pellets and how such bacterial death may increase nitrate and/or phosphate levels. However, I would note that the fact that your skimmer is producing a lot of skimmate is by no means necessarily indicative of how effective the bacteria grown on the pellets are in exporting nitrate and phosphate. A skimmer which is pulling out less skimmate but skimmate with a much higher concentration of live bacteria together with all the nitrate and phosphate bound up in the live bacteria is going to in all liklihood export more nitrate and phosphate from the system than a skimmer which pulls out more volume of skimmate but skimmate containing a higher density of dead bacteria which have already released upon their death back into the system the nitrate and phosphate that the bacteria consumed prior to be skimmed out of the system. The key here imo is not merely the skimmate volume, but the contents of the skimmate and specifically the amount of live bacteria removed with the skimmate.

 

[larryfl1]

im sure this was answered somewhere in this thread

but how long does the bacteria bloom (cloudy) last?

i woke up to it this morning

 

[bertoni]

The ozone setups we use in aquariums are far too weak to kill bacteria. They will affect organic compounds, but the concentration and exposure time are too small to affect bacteria.

 

[Stuart60611]

The ozone setups we use in aquariums are far too weak to kill bacteria. They will affect organic compounds, but the concentration and exposure time are too small to affect bacteria.

Is the same true of UV?

 

[Toadally]

Are you guys running the outlet from the reactor directly into the skimmer intake?

 

[Stuart60611]

Are you guys running the outlet from the reactor directly into the skimmer intake?

Not directly b/c I have no idea how to plumb it directly connected to the skimmer intake, but I am running the effluent output from the reactor in as close proximity to the skimmer intake as possible with the intent of skimming out as much of the bacteria from the effluent as I can.

 

[Toadally]

I'm thinking about running mine "loosely" into the intake of the skimmer. My reactor uses flexable plastic and I was thinking about using a 90 degree elbow.

 

[jlinzmaier]

The theory is that. The reality is quite different. Just the fact that systemic bacterial blooms take place at all indicates otherwise. There are plenty of pix of systems that clearly show that the bacteria are making it either through the skimmer or around it. I think the bigger question is how useful are these bacteria as a food source, if at all. I'm thinking that a good many assumptions are being made where these products are concerned.

DJ

Pretty frustrating that so often products don't work like the manufacturers state!! Many companies are good at creating a product then creating a scenario that they'd like their product to achieve. So many lack the follow up to actually make the product work like the fairy tale story implied in their marketing. Taking a theory and accomplishing half of it but indicating it will perform as the whole theory states is all too often the case. Unfortunately, assumptions are written as truths in good marketing!!

In regards to the bacterial blooms, I don't think that the bacterial blooms are necessarily indicative of bacteria being pumped out of the BP reactor and making around the skimmer, but more likely that the BP's are doing what the manufacturer says they won't; which is release a carbon source into the water column.

My concern would be in this circumstance that although the bacteria may or may not be easier to skim out when killed and broken down into smaller organic molecules by either ozone or UV, once killed and broken down in this manner would not the bacteria then release all of the nitrate and phosphate it consumed back into the system? To me, those bacteria killed and broken down in this fashion would be very counter-productive to the goal of removing nitrate and phosphate.

You make it sound that when bacteria die they release a puff of nitrate and phosphate. Not really the case. The decomposition of the bacteria may eventaully lead to the release of nitrate and phosphate (and a dozen other types of simple organic molecules). Varying stages of decomposition and different types of molecules may or may not be skimmed out easier. I have yet to see any study indicating that whole live bacteria, whole dead bacteria, ammonia, phosphate molecules, nitirite, nitrate, amino acids, or any other sort of organic is exported easier than the next via a protein skimmer. If we knew what type, size, or composition of organic molecule skimmed out easiest we might be striving to create a set up which kept the organics in that form so they could be removed easiest. Or, consider this: Maybe the stages of decomposition leads to organic molecules and amino acids being released that are more beneficial for corals and microfauna than the structure they came from originally (a whole bacteria for example) or the further types of molecules they can break down into (nitrate and phosphate). Just a thought.

Jeremy

 

[larryfl1]

i am dumping the water about an inch away from the skimmer intake..i assume this is ok...?

also how long with the cloudy water last?

 

[Stuart60611]

You make it sound that when bacteria die they release a puff of nitrate and phosphate. Not really the case. The decomposition of the bacteria may eventaully lead to the release of nitrate and phosphate (and a dozen other types of simple organic molecules). Varying stages of decomposition and different types of molecules may or may not be skimmed out easier. I have yet to see any study indicating that whole live bacteria, whole dead bacteria, ammonia, phosphate molecules, nitirite, nitrate, amino acids, or any other sort of organic is exported easier than the next via a protein skimmer.

Very good point that I never considered.

 

[Rwpdunne]

Well i had enough of these pellets i running them 4 months now and my nitrate is sticking at 4ppm ive added more pellets changed flow trough the reactor slow fast just sick of it now sps corals not doing so good lps look great??
so iam going back to zeovit wich is proven as an ulns with great results so its bye bye bio pellets hello zeovit

 

[jlinzmaier]

Well i had enough of these pellets i running them 4 months now and my nitrate is sticking at 4ppm ive added more pellets changed flow trough the reactor slow fast just sick of it now sps corals not doing so good lps look great??
so iam going back to zeovit wich is proven as an ulns with great results so its bye bye bio pellets hello zeovit

Sorry for your frustrations.

I've been through the zeo process and ran it for a year and a half. It may be proven to work successfully on some tanks but it's no silver bullet. It has a long list of drawbacks as well. After a year and half of running zeo (and carefully following all of the direction provided by Bob and G. Alexander) then experimenting with simple vodka dosing, I found that I had more successful nutrient management with less catastrophies using the simple vodka dosing than I did with the entire zeo process. IMO, zeo is like continually riding a thin line and deviating from that thin line even a little leads to coral death and disaster. Not to mention, it costs oodles of moola for products that have no indication of what they contain and no research has been done to show they do what the marketing indicates.

I beg you, if you want better nutrient control, please try vodka dosing before you spend a fortune on all the zeo products and buy into the all the marketing hype. If the vodka dosing doesn't work for you then try zeo. You'll likely want to drink the vodka when you finally realize how much money you've wasted on unecessary zeo supplements.

Jeremy

 

[DJREEF]

but more likely that the BP's are doing what the manufacturer says they won't; which is release a carbon source into the water column.
Jeremy

Which falls inline with my original assumptions. I don't think there's any doubt at this point that some form of carbon byproduct is making it into the display.

DJ

 

[bluereefs]

also how long with the cloudy water last?

Depends, from 2-3 days to a week or longer.

If is a milder cloudines and is not getting worse next days then IME for 2-3 days aquarium will get clear. If is getting worse, more cloudines next days then cloudines can last for week.

IMO if you have reef with loots of livestock (corals) and big bacterial bloom, I would check the corals and in case of stress discontinue the use of bp, change the water, use activated carbon and after clearance start with less BP.

Strong bacterial bloom can wipe out nutrients/organic to fast from aquarium and create stress to corals.

 

[pecan2phat]

Wow, thanks for answering all my noob questions on the sulfur denitrator and ozone/UV use.
I'll probably leave the ozone on since it's only 50 mg (max recommended by Deltec) into one of the two Eheim recirc pumps on my skimmer. UV I will have to decide on.

Can you recommend my approach on starting up the bio beads?
I plan to use the recommended 550 ml per 75g by the manufacturer so I have 4 bags. Do I start with 1100 ml in the reactor then add an additional 550 ml per week or should I only start with 550 ml?
Thanks again

 

[Toadally]

Wow, thanks for answering all my noob questions on the sulfur denitrator and ozone/UV use.
I'll probably leave the ozone on since it's only 50 mg (max recommended by Deltec) into one of the two Eheim recirc pumps on my skimmer. UV I will have to decide on.

Can you recommend my approach on starting up the bio beads?
I plan to use the recommended 550 ml per 75g by the manufacturer so I have 4 bags. Do I start with 1100 ml in the reactor then add an additional 550 ml per week or should I only start with 550 ml?
Thanks again

I would start with half the recommended amount and then after 4 weeks go to the full amount. Thats what I have done without any issues so far.

 

[jh2pizza]

Well, Three weeks after George modified my reactor to a Recirc style, I can honestly say that I am happy with the results. Nothing measurable, coral seem to have better color and the glass is always clean. The power was interrupted at the house due to a storm yesterday for 3 hours. The recirc pump was on the ER circuit, but the feed pump was not. Within 3 hours, the reactor was so cloudy, you would not be able to see through it at all.

 

[jh2pizza]

Just curious. How did we come up with the notion that the reactors output should go directly to the skimmer? When dosing other carbon sources, its pored into the sump and didn't matter.

Just wondering.

 

[sirreal63]

Into the skimmer to skim out any sloughed off bacterial mass, rather than have it flow through the system. Obviously some still gets into the tank, but the idea is to skim out as much as possible before the main tank.

 

[daveonbass]

hello guys...I'm back in the BP club.

The rice didn't work out at all for me so I've put the BP back in the reactor (cause I have nothing else to put there). So maybe they will kick in, but I'm more or less counting this as a new DAY ONE, and not presuming that I've been doing this for 4 months.

After trying the cheaper rice, I can greatly see the advantages of the polymer system. a lot less to go wrong with the BP than the rice...less to worry about, I guess thanks to the manufacturer.

BUT...

I still gotta get them to WORK...haha.

(anyone miss me?)