N/P reducing pellets (solid vodka dosing)

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this is why I posted the above summary izzy.
Carbon dosing of any form increases both the good and the bad bacteria. Hence if you overdo it then you get a bacterial bloom(cloudy)
This is why it is very important to have an excellent protein skimmer.

N/p biopellets are a little easier to manage the bacteria blooms in that it is a slow release back into the tank where dosing sugar or vodka or any other carbon source is immmediately dosed into the system.

They are all methods of carbon dosing--hope this helps the confusion a bit

I started to follow this thread because I was wondering if these pellets could be a good alternative for a refugium.....

Some of the pro's here stated that it would probably be wise to wait a bit and let my system ( and myself :D ) mature.

But still, it is very interesting to see people try a brand new product and share there findings with all who are interested.........

I'm learning a lot from you guys....... thanks :thumbsup:
 
I started to follow this thread because I was wondering if these pellets could be a good alternative for a refugium.....

Some of the pro's here stated that it would probably be wise to wait a bit and let my system ( and myself :D ) mature.

But still, it is very interesting to see people try a brand new product and share there findings with all who are interested.........

I'm learning a lot from you guys....... thanks :thumbsup:

I kind of look at it like this:
Unless you are using the refugium as a source of food for the display tank then I can see carbon dosing in any method conflicting with its use.
Similarily if you do not have a nitrate problem then you don't need to carbon dose
If you had a nitrate problem and it is under control by use of a refugium, deep sand bed, cryptic bed etc etc then I don't see any point in carbon dosing either
If you are experiencing nitrate problems, don't have a refugium then I can see carbon dosing as a less expensive alternative.
 
Euh, I'm just a newbee who finds this thread interesting, and correct me if I'm wrong but....... I think that dead bacteria are also organisms:wildone:

And you change yourmind a lot........ first there not working..... :(

Then you go on about trying the rice method......... :crazy1:

And now they work...... but people don't answer your questions fast enough :eek2:

Don't be offended, but you sound a bit like my wife when we go out..... you can't seem to make up your mind on what to wear...... :D

I'm really glad for you they started to work tho....... :thumbsup:

I don't follow you. And bare in mind that everything you stated is on a 6+ month timeline, even if you did just read it all.

first they didn't work, then they didn't work in another tank of mine with similar problems, then rice didn't work, and then they didn't work again, then I got sent new pellets and guess what...yup...they didn't work either. Where have I changed my mind? As far as my sarcasim it was just funny to me that sometimes my phone is blowing up with new post updates, but when I had a glimmer of hope (which failed) there was no one online to respond...sorry my humor was lost on that one.

but again...I have yet to change my mind...and sadly I really want them to work.
they are NOT working for me...that is the bottom line.
 
in fact after doing my routine testing...my nitrates appear to have gone up again after the last WC. Back to around 10ppm NO3.

so it seems that the bacteria will grow in the reactor....but not effect the tank params once turned back on. So even at under 100gph flow through the reactor...and no visible or tactile appearance of bacteria...there is still no useful levels of anything to remove nitrate in my little tank.

so once again my question to the success stories is: do you think I may just need more pellets? If not then what else could it be?
 
in fact after doing my routine testing...my nitrates appear to have gone up again after the last WC. Back to around 10ppm NO3.

so it seems that the bacteria will grow in the reactor....but not effect the tank params once turned back on. So even at under 100gph flow through the reactor...and no visible or tactile appearance of bacteria...there is still no useful levels of anything to remove nitrate in my little tank.

so once again my question to the success stories is: do you think I may just need more pellets? If not then what else could it be?

Hi Dave,
I have removed my B/P's and i am running a new form of pellets by a company called http://www.bioaquatek.com/. I have been running these pellets for roughly two and a half weeks now and using 750ml and as i mentioned in my last post my nitrates are still at 10ppm and i still cannot get them under this figure. Going back to my previous post the N/P quantity i was using was 1000ml and even that did'nt take the trates to under 10ppm.
 
My N-P Biopellet experience thus far...

My N-P Biopellet experience thus far...

I started using the N-P Biopellets back in April of this year, after reading this thread. I've not had detectable NO3 or PO4 levels for a long time, but I've had a constant battle with nuisance algae, so I know the nutrients are there. I've always run GFO, but hoped to cut down on my usage rate of this compound.

I decided to try the pellets as I travel quite a bit, and I thought they would be easier to manage than liquid carbon dosing, as my wife does all the reef work when I'm traveling. I decided to run 1 liter of the pellets in a Geo 420 (22" tall) reactor, fed by a valve off my return manifold. This has allowed me to adjust flow anywhere from just about nil to a roaring boil.

Sadly, I have had no luck with the pellets thus far. I continue to battle nuisance algae. NO3 and PO4 remain undetectable, but the algae apparently is a better nutrient competitor than my pellets. I've since started vinegar dosing in an effort to control my GHA problem.

Over the last few days, as a last-ditch effort to "ignite" my Biopellets, I inoculated my reactor with 10 ml of skimmate, and left the flow shut off for three days. This morning I restarted the reactor, and dumped the first couple of gallons of water to exit the reactor. Phew! Stinky, definitely anoxic in there!

I'll report back soon as to whether this effort worked; if no joy, I may try the Warner Marine product before giving up on the solid carbon idea entirely.

Thanks for reading!
 
f you have not read my blog on Probiotics here it is:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=17690651&postcount=321

I recently acquired a client with a 45 gal tank running the aqaripure filtation system. The rocks and tanks were covered with algae suggesting to me that the system was not doing what it was suppose to be doing-removing nitrates
However the system had little to no flow, no protein skimmer and was relying on a fluval cannister for filtration. I have added a k3 evolution for flow, a remora hob protein skimmer and taken the fluval out of the system for now.

The following is the commercial blurb for the unit from their web site. I do know you have to add vodka via a special portal to the unit and it creates a biofilm in the unit. The unit is setup on a drip return to the tank

What I am trying to find out if this unit is worth the money as compared to running biopellets in a phosban reactor.


"The Next Generation in Aquarium Filtration TM
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An Aquaripure Nitrate Filter will greatly reduce the need for water changes in your fish tanks, saving you time, money, and reducing the stress on your aquarium fish.

What is an Aquaripure Filter?

The Aquaripure filter is a comprehensive biological filter which will completely remove all organic matter and nitrates in an Aquarium. This type of filter is also known as a denitrator, denitrifier, biodenitrator, anaerobic biological filter, or simply a nitrate filter. Other biological filters only convert organic matter into nitrates which then accumulate in the aquarium, physical filters only remove larger particulate matter, and skimmers do not remove any nitrates. The Aquaripure uses beneficial bacteria to break down invisible organic matter and nitrates completely into Nitrogen gas which then escapes into the atmosphere. This same process is even used by some water treatment plants to make wastewater safe for human consumption and to clean polluted water. The Aquaripure does this in an extremely safe and controlled environment and after the water from the Aquaripure is aerated there is nothing left but pure, clean, crystal clear water. Don't just take our word for it, read some of our customers actual testimonials.

How can an Aquaripure save me money?

The Aquaripure will greatly reduce water changes. As an example lets use a 29 gallon freshwater planted tank and a 180 gallon saltwater reef tank. For the freshwater planted tank, if your tap water is hard or alkaline then it shouldn't be used for water changes and you would have to buy distilled water (that has pH of 7) for about $1 a gallon. It would take at least 30 minutes a week for a 35% water change on the FW tank if weekly water changes were kept up. On the saltwater reef tank you would have to use salt which costs at least $0.35 a gallon and that's just using plain old tap water. If you use R/O water the costs go up a lot more. The saltwater tank would take at least 2 hours total to mix drain and refill and get everything back where it was with a 35% water change.

So ... If you did a 35% weekly water change on both tanks it would take 120+ hours per year. Even at minimum wage that would be at least worth $800+. The freshwater tank would cost (29 x .35 x 52 x $1) = $528 in distilled water and the saltwater tank would cost (180 x .35 x 52 x $0.35) = $1147 in salt. So the total cost would be at least $2475 a year. With Aquaripure nitrate filters you could only do water change about once every 3 months so that's a savings of well over $2150 every year!

What makes Aquaripure the best?

Don't be fooled by the cheap nitrate removal products. These are simply a tiny band-aid on a large and permanent problem. You will need to buy them over and over again and they are not a good value. Only a specialized nitrate filter like Aquaripure can provide permanent and complete nitrate reduction. And unlike other similar nitrate filters, Aquaripure filters use proprietary and patent pending technology to maximize it's efficiency and effectiveness. Aquaripure filters all have a tremendous internal surface area for denitrifying bacteria to grow and thrive, much more than any "coil" denitrator or the other competition. For example, it would take more than ten "coil" type nitrate filters to equal the nitrate removing power of an X-Large Aquaripure. Moreover, many other nitrate filters are vastly overrated in terms of their capacity.

In "sulfur" nitrate filters the effluent contains large amounts of H2SO4, sulfuric acid, and SO4, sulfate. You must have a separate reactor with carbonate to neutralize the acid. The resulting effluent is still very high in sulfates and they will accumulate in the tank. According to the Environmental Protection Agency, high sulfates in drinking water can cause laxative effects. It is possible that it may also have adverse effects in the aquarium, especially on sensitive fish. Also, the costly sulfur and carbonate media must periodically be replaced. None of this is an issue with Aquaripure filters. With Aquaripure, no sulfuric acid or sulfates are produced and nothing will ever need to be replaced.

The chemical reaction in the Aquaripure produces 10 CO2 + 6 N2 + 26 H2O

Water and Carbon Dioxide versus Sulfuric Acid and Sulfates. Which would you prefer in your aquarium?

Aquaripure filters utilize the only highest quality tubing, valves, and connections. You will not find any cheap parts on an Aquaripure filter. Aquaripure filters are also "pre-populated" with more beneficial bacteria than ever to start working fast. Unlike other nitrate removal products, the Aquaripure is designed to be safe, extremely easy to use, require little maintenance, and completely remove nitrates for many, many years."

I have had the good fortune to have Murray Camp, the author of this article answer me on another thread. We are discussing np pellets and other forms of carbon dosing if anyone is interested here
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=17694366&postcount=328
 
most people know that my answer will be "absolutely NOT"... :D

Any reason why not? It is common to dose bacteria alongside Vodka dosing (some say necessary), so I don't know why it would be any different with a solid carbon source. I recently started dosing MB7 with my ecoBAK for this reason.
 
Any reason why not? It is common to dose bacteria alongside Vodka dosing (some say necessary), so I don't know why it would be any different with a solid carbon source. I recently started dosing MB7 with my ecoBAK for this reason.

I agree, as I said before Daveonbass, this would probably get the pellets working. It does sound like a bacterial imbalance, sounds like you have good phosphate utilising bacteria, but need to outcompete these using heterotrophic denitrifying bacteria. Daveonbass do you know what your potassium level is at?

I know you don't like or believe in bacterial imbalances in the aquarium if you use live rock. There is a lot known about bacteria in the scientific community and this does point to a bacterial imbalance in your system. A lot of people have used bacteria additions to help reduce NPK with different types of carbon dosing.
 
yes. Two main ones.

the first is the important one. The manufacturers don't say it's nessiccary. That's a big reason for me...cause this method is supposed to just work, and yet many are having trouble making it work without "buying" more stuff. At 50 bucks a pop it's sad to think that we would need to buy MORE stuff...and then liquid dose again, which is what we are trying to stop doing. So no, till I give up on them ever working without dosing, I will continue to let them run without MB7.

the second reason..I'm broke and can not afford to buy any more stuff for the tank. Nuff said.
 
who said I don't believe in a bacterial imbalance? Of course I have a bacterial imbalance...i have always assumed this along side of PO4 limitations.

and no I do not have a K test kit....sorry.
 
yes. Two main ones.

the first is the important one. The manufacturers don't say it's nessiccary. That's a big reason for me...cause this method is supposed to just work, and yet many are having trouble making it work without "buying" more stuff. At 50 bucks a pop it's sad to think that we would need to buy MORE stuff...and then liquid dose again, which is what we are trying to stop doing. So no, till I give up on them ever working without dosing, I will continue to let them run without MB7.

the second reason..I'm broke and can not afford to buy any more stuff for the tank. Nuff said.

I agree with you there, I think the biopellet should come coated with the correct bacteria to help seed the tank initially, this would make them so much more efficient.
 
Any reason why not? It is common to dose bacteria alongside Vodka dosing (some say necessary), so I don't know why it would be any different with a solid carbon source. I recently started dosing MB7 with my ecoBAK for this reason.

There are also some folks who say it is not necessary to dose bacteria, one of those being Randy Holmes-Farley. If memory serves, Randy has said there are species in abundance of bacteria in our tanks. The point has also been made that as with many other commercial supplements, we don't know what is in these products... although to be fair we don't know for certain what is in the Biopellets either. ;) Just another point of view.

In my particular case, my suspicion as to the reason I have not had good luck with the pellets thus far is that I am nutrient-limited in the water column; once I figure out how to pry these nutrients away from the freakin' algae and get them to the pellets I'll be in good shape.
 
yes. Two main ones.

the first is the important one. The manufacturers don't say it's nessiccary. That's a big reason for me...cause this method is supposed to just work, and yet many are having trouble making it work without "buying" more stuff. At 50 bucks a pop it's sad to think that we would need to buy MORE stuff...and then liquid dose again, which is what we are trying to stop doing. So no, till I give up on them ever working without dosing, I will continue to let them run without MB7.

the second reason..I'm broke and can not afford to buy any more stuff for the tank. Nuff said.


I agree the manufacturer's claim they aren't necessary but it's common sense to know it's necessary when there is either a lack of bacteria (in my case) or a bacterial imbalance. I agree with Randy to a certain extent about there being enough bacteria, but this would be in an ideal situation where there is a greater population of "good" bacteria vs "bad" - from a tank that is already stable. I started my tank with only Marco rock and dry sand so there was little or no bacteria to begin with. Thus I ended up with a nasty algae problem due to a severe imbalance of good bacteria population. Likewise I can also see why an imbalanced established tank would just sit and do nothing since there isn't enough beneficial bacteria even though there is a carbon source for them to feed. So... this goes back to my original theory of since bacteria dosing is necessary with Vodka,it should be commonplace with pellets at least until a significant population of good bacteria has been established. From there, the bacteria should be able to support the system and grow and wane based upon the tank's needs via feeding off the pellets. :)
 
well my tank is stable...and still no real effect from the pellets. And I dissagree with you on the common sense part. If the people selling it say that dosing isn't nessiccary, then it shouldn't ever be needed...THAT should be what is common sense.

buyer/user: Do I NEED to dose bacteria with these pellets?
manufacturer: No, it is not "nessiccary" for them to work.
buyer/user: Ok, I'll dose if I think I should anyways...

that doesn't make sense. Not to me at least...

again, my biggest problem though is not that (cause I tried doseing MB7, and it still didn't work), it's that I'm too broke to keep buying a product that didn't help... :P
 
I do understand your misery over this, but really...if GM didn't specifically tell you to put gas in the car, would you? The fact that you got a bloom in the reactor when it sat should tell you that something is limiting the correct bacterial populations from taking control.

You also need to remember this product was not designed for the aquarium industry, someone had to take the initiative and try it, and it worked. The manufacturer did not design it for this use, how would you expect them to know what will work or not, or what the limiting factors are for it's success? They don't and they probably don't care.

ostrich-headinsand.jpg
 
Dave said he dosed MB7 and it didn't help, that should put the argument to rest that he doesn't have the correct bacterial species. I'm also going to try MB7, I have to wait for my next DF&S order as it's not carried locally.

I'm pretty sure the comment about the car and gas is a logical fallacy, I just can't remember which one at this point, as it has been known since the early 1900's that cars need gas. ;) Much work remains to be done on probiotic systems.

Anyway, I think this bacterial discussion borders on threadjacking, so I'm out until I report back on my "ignition" experiment. I know I grew something, 'cuz the first couple of gallons of effluent smelled vile... whether it was useful or not remains to be seen.
 
hmm...where to start.

the thing is that gm DOES tell you what to/not to put in your car...even down to the ideal octane of fuel. As well as other fluids and when to check/replace them...they have a much more detailed instruction manual vs. the little snippet of text from the BP sellers. So again for me it comes back to lack of detail in the usage of these products.

the fact that I get a bloom in JUST the reactor, with the same water that's in the tank...the only limiting bit is the fact that the volume of water has changed. Which is why I am starting to assume that it's probably the amount of BP that is the true limiting factor. I think that if I had more in there then they might work finally in the whole tank. After all what else could be limited in that situation? All other factors are the same (except for flow, which I have taken down to a tiny trickle in the reactor with still no results).

lastly, when I talk about manufacturers, I, and I assume others, are NOT referring to the plastics producers, but instead to the people that are selling the plastics as "bio pellets for the aquarium trade." it is them that should have the R&D to back up their claims and should also have MORE info on how to utilize these in different situations. THAT is who I am referring to as the manufacturers of the BP. To use your analogy, I don't refer to the company that makes the raw materiald for a car as the manufacturer...i am referring to GM when I make that statement. ;)
 
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