Need to improve flow into sump

[Otto2]

I have a 1262 for a return pump on my 120 w/ two 1" drains. It is full open with no problems. To stop fish from getting sucked in, I made my own overflow box and have two 1" elbows facing down. Inside the elbows I glued eggcrate in them like a screen. The only thing I can think of is that one of your drains might be clogged or your drains are set to high in the tank.

This is how my flow looks in my tank.

 

[pugmommie]

Otto2, How did you plumb the exit side of your bulkheads. Is it similar to the way we have ours plumbed? I'm not sure if the exit holes are to high they are drilled 5 inches from the top.

Billdogg, The tank is already drilled with 2 returns in the bottom of the tank for the closed loop. Their is third hole centered in the rear of the tank at the same level as the overflows for the intake for the closed loop. We are thinking about using the third hole in the rear for another drain into the sump and replacing it with an over the top intake for the closed loop. I'm concerned about the noise factor with having 3 drains into the sump with the existing 2 the sucking and gurgling noise is quite loud. We have not yet tried to reduce this issue yet but hate to compound the problem.

 

[pugmommie]

for the eheim 1262 pump we used 1 inch instead of 3/4 in pipe for the return. Could 1 inch be giving us to much flow?

 

[Otto2]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14062959#post14062959 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by pugmommie
Otto2, How did you plumb the exit side of your bulkheads. Is it similar to the way we have ours plumbed? I'm not sure if the exit holes are to high they are drilled 5 inches from the top.

Here's a pic of the ugly plumbing in the back. I didnt know about clear primer till after it was all done.

It doesnt matter where your holes are drilled in the glass, but where the water enters the elbow. In my first pic, you can see where the water level is set at with the height of my overflow box. Maybe take the elbows off and just have the water enter just the bulkheads. If it still doesnt handle the flow, you must have something cloggin the drain pipes somewhere down the line. You should not have a problem with a 1262 for a return and two 1" drains

I also have 1" plumbing on my return pump.

 

[pugmommie]

ok I think we have decided how we are going to tackle this-

We have emptied the tank and are going to use the middle whole for the 3rd drain into the sump and repipe the closed loop.

Did a test with only 1 drain working and level does rise in tank so the more drains the better- just seems safer in case one of them gets restricted.


We have reduced the noise by putting a piece of flex tubing into the top of the overflows.

 

[pugmommie]

Otto2, the four bulkheads on the outside are those part of a closed loop system or part of your return from the sump?

 

[Otto2]

Those are part of the closed loop. The two drains I have are the ones in the middle with the pipes sticking up above the tank.

 

[pugmommie]

went to lowes and had a change of plans - we are going to redo one of the existing overflows with 1 1/2 inch pvc.
When we get that done we'll do a flow test and also do a clog test by blocking the 1 inch drain and see how the 1 1/2 inch handles flow. Not sure if it will work since it is till coming from the 1 inch bulk head.
If it does work then we will also change out the other pipe to 1 1/2 inch, if it doesn't work then it back to the original plan of making the closed loop bulk head into a third drain

 

[Hop]

The bulkhead is definitely going to be the issue with the setup. Although some more volume above the BH may help overall.

 

[pugmommie]

Completed the 1 1/2 inch on the left side and it did seem to help with the flow, but with that said when I did the clog test on the right side the water level rose in tank, so for safety I am going to go with the 3 over flows to sump and make them all 1 1/2 inch with the 1 inch bulk heads.

The closed loop will just have to go over the back of tank.

 

[Jacob D]

Pugmommie -

Have you attempted the simple modification of making your open drains into Durso style drains? I'm surprised nobody has suggested this. Not only will it quiet your drains but it will increase the capacity they can handle. I know for a fact that 1" drains will handle up to 800 GPH with a proper Durso, or any semi-siphon design, as I used to run that much flow through my 75g.


You need to find a fitting that will convert the top of your open drain pipe to a 1/2" female pipe the. Then get a 1/2" plastic ball valve. This valve is simply going to restrict the air flow into your drain. There is nothing magical about 1/2" size, it could be a little smaller or larger.

1. Turn your pump off.
2. Connect the ball valve to top of the stand pipe.
3. Close the ball valve completely
4. Have your hubby man the power switch to the pump and turn it on and stay put in case you need to turn the pump off to avoid a flood.
5. Let the flow get going and watch what happens, you should be pulling a full siphon so you'll get a surging/flushing action.
6. Start to slowly open the ball valve to allow air in and watch the flow for a few seconds after each adjustment. You should get to a point where the standpipe is handling the flow and you can stop adjusting.


Some people actually drill a small hole in a pipe cap, which you could do for testing if you have a cap handy, but I prefer the valve as it is easily adjustable and you'll be able to adjust it from time to time when salt creep starts to clog it. Eventually with the valve you'll have to pull it and clean it, same thing with drilling a hole just more often since a hole is not adjustable.

 

[Hop]

That would be a herbie style overflow and you shouldn't run one IMO without a back up... There is no back up here

 

[pugmommie]

Hop- Can you elaborate please.

 

[Jacob D]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14065313#post14065313 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Hop
That would be a herbie style overflow and you shouldn't run one IMO without a back up... There is no back up here

No, it is not Herbie standpipe.


A Herbie standpipe utilizes a deeply submerged inlet by restricting the WATER flow. This prevents a vortex from forming at the open standpipe and causing noise, and it does lead to a quieter sump also. However, as you mentioned, a backup standpipe is needed in case the restricted one becomes too restricted or plugs.

A Durso standpipe utilizes a shallow submerged inlet and restricts the AIR flow to cause a partial siphon. This quiets the overflow but does not quiet the sump, however that can be addressed separately. If the Durso air valve becomes restricted the standpipe will pull a full siphon which will cause a flushing effect but should not allow the tank to overflow by the same virtue. I only say "should not" instead of "will never" the latter of which is probably more accurate but Mr. Murphy and reefing go hand in hand, hence "should not".

 

[Hop]

Herbie style overflows mean that you intentionally start a siphon using ball valves and balance the waterlevel with the ball valve after the siphon has started. The problem is that if one of the drains becomes obstructed you have a flood. The solution is to provide another overflow that is not used, but kicks in if/when the siphon slows.

 

[Jacob D]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14065602#post14065602 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Hop
Herbie style overflows mean that you intentionally start a siphon using ball valves and balance the waterlevel with the ball valve after the siphon has started. The problem is that if one of the drains becomes obstructed you have a flood. The solution is to provide another overflow that is not used, but kicks in if/when the siphon slows.

Right, that's what I just told you. So where did I suggest anything about "balancing the water level with the ball valve"? I'm talking about a Durso standpipe, the valve is a tiny valve used to balance air flow only, it never touches the water.


ANY stand pipe that becomes plugged has a good likely hood of causing a flood. Some designs are a little safer than others. Durso is one of them that is somewhat safer.

 

[Hop]

Mothra, your instructions lead to believe you were speaking of a herbie

Your not going to get 800 gph through a 1" standpipe without it. It may quiet their drains, but the reality is that the way the set up is configured, it isn't going to make a difference. Thus the reason I didn't mention a durso style yet, since noise wasn't the issue yet...

 

[Jacob D]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14065677#post14065677 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Hop
Mothra, your instructions lead to believe you were speaking of a herbie

Your not going to get 800 gph through a 1" standpipe without it.

Then I must have done the impossible. When my previous tank was set up I used a stopwatch to time 10 gallons of flow through my standpipe and it worked out to about 800 gph. That's not very scientific so I'll concede with margin of error it could have been 700 GPH.

- An open standpipe has no siphon effect
- A Durso standpipe has a partial siphon effect, which will increase the flow capacity.
- A Herbie standpipe has a full siphon effect, which will increase the flow capacity even further.


Pugmommie -
Modding what you have is so simple and will be so much easier than replumbing one or both standpipes that I can't think of a reason why to not do it.

 

[Hop]

Post a picture of your set up mothra and I'll show you where the issue lies in this set up... The horizontal run through the wall and the 1' of downward travel.

Sorry if you took offense to my posts, I was eating dinner and didn't see you replied in between my postings

 

[Jacob D]

No offense taken, I just don't like repeating myself and tend to come of harsh sometimes. Along the lines of which I mentioned "my previous setup" a couple of times , hence I don't have a picture of this handy - but feel free to show me where the issues are with this system.

Here is a quote and link from Durso website, emphasis added by me.
"The presence of a standpipe really makes no difference in how much water you can process. The limiting factor is almost always the teeth spacing of the overflow chamber. This is what limits how much water can enter the chamber. If your plumbing can handle the water flow without a standpipe it will handle it with a standpipe. However, many people have reported being able to push the drains beyond the rated limit by increasing the teeth spacing and reducing the vent hole size which pushes the standpipe to act more like a siphon than a gravity drain. Doing this is risky and you are on your own. I can't recommend it. But people have claimed to reach rates as high as 800 to 1000 GPH with 1 inch bulkheads rated for 600 GPH.

Conservative Suggestions:

1 Inch Bulkhead = 600 GPH.
1.5 Inch Bulkhead = 1,500 GPH."


http://www.dursostandpipes.com/?page_id=14