New 360Gallon sump & circulation design

karimwassef

New member
Ok. I've been out of reef keeping for nearly a decade now (7 years) and am breaking back in. Here's my design, but I have to admit, I haven't done my homework in researching what has changed (I know about LED's, ha ha ha).

Most of this is old school, so I'd appreciate fresh eyes. Here are the rules for the design:

1. Safe - 0.00001% chance of water on the floor
2. Quiet - waiting on a dB spec from the wife
3. No bubbles in the MT
4. On a budget (as much DIY as possble)

Only the tank is in the house, the rest is in the garage. So I have plenty of room. I'm going to use this schematic to estimate the cost as well, so let me know if I've missed any big expensive items.

Also - not sure if the image will show up. If not, I'll try and repost.
 

Attachments

  • Capture mini.jpg
    0 bytes · Views: 0
  • Capture.pdf
    0 bytes · Views: 0
  • Capture.jpg
    0 bytes · Views: 0
Last edited:

uncleof6

New member
both images are broken. Get a photobucket account, upload the images, then copy the html code to the image and past it in a post.....

1) Not possible. A system can be designed so the chance of a flood is very minimal, even with the sump right under the tank, where it really should be, however, no way you will keep water from hitting the floor at some point.

2) Use large, low rpm pump motors... I am assuming the tank is 360 gallons? These are the types of pumps you need to look at. A silent drain system is going to be a siphon system--bean animals design.

3) No bubbles in the drain system, and an efficient high flow sump design, simple with no tall waterfalls in it.

4) If i am correct, and this tank is 360 gallon, there is no such thing as a "budget build" for this size tank.....

Here is a high flow sump for a 325 gal tank.....

<a href="http://s655.photobucket.com/albums/uu274/uncleof6/?action=view&current=337galloncustom7.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu274/uncleof6/337galloncustom7.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

<a href="http://s655.photobucket.com/albums/uu274/uncleof6/?action=view&current=337galloncustom9.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu274/uncleof6/337galloncustom9.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>
 

karimwassef

New member
Trying to post the pic again from photobucket - thanks for the advice.

<a href="http://s1062.beta.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/library/" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/8a1a1660.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"/></a>

1) Safe - I didn't say 0% chance. My point is to minimize the risk in every way possible. For example, the emergency drain in the tank overflow section and the same in the surge buckets are ideas that support this. I am tolerant of occassional floods or splashes in the gararge, but not in the main tank area.


4) Budget - The tank is 360 gallons. Budget means $5K to $10K, not $20K to $50K. So, where possible, I need to find alternatives to optimize the system performance on a budget. For example, I am looking for ways to set up a DIY laptop controller for the tank instead of paying $1K for a dedicated tank controller. This may or may not be a good idea.

Again - thanks for the feedback and GREAT SETUP on your tank!
 

on the spot

New member
Internal pumps can easily replace the surge dump tanks. You'll use less energy, and without the actuated ball valves to buy or the pumps pushing water from the garage to the tanks probably spend less as well. Even a wavebox can be hidden or blended in such a large tank.

Skimmers have gotten better too.

welcome back.
 

karimwassef

New member
on the spot - I haven't found internal pumps that were really efficient (water volume vs. power consumed). Can you recommend one?
 

jjk_reef00

New member
Sicce, and waterblaster pumps are both good and can be ran internal which will reduce noise and provide less opportunity for water to hit the floor. I have a waterblaster now and like it. I'm thinking about picking up a sicce for my closed loop.

Look into some of the newer skimmers for energy efficiency and to reduce noise. IMO don't skimp on equipment. I did that for a few things and then a year later was selling them so I could get better equipment. You can buy some this year and save to get some other things later (such as a controller).

Nice diagram, what program are you using to create them?
 

karimwassef

New member
thanks for the feedback jjk

I reworked the schematic to include as many internal pumps as possible. I have one large external return pump already so I'll keep that one for now.

I also added a dosing pump - not sure if that's still the in-thing... working off memory here.

<a href="http://s1062.beta.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/library/" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/a8f12772.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"/></a>

I use excel. I just make the cells square and color them to make it easy to modify based on feedback. It looks like kiddie-drawing, but it's convenient.
 

karimwassef

New member
combining the sumps to reduce cost and space. also using gravity feed for the water change tank to sump.

<a href="http://s1062.beta.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/library/" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/936f976a.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"/></a>

I though of adding a denitrator coil, but the DSB should do the job alone. In case it wasn't clear:

blue pipe is gravity fed
red pipe is pump pressurized
orange pipe is surge output
pink pipe is new saltwater
light blue pipe is fresh water
 
Last edited:

Lavoisier

Premium Member
Nice design, well conceived.

A couple of thoughts for what they are worth. Plumbing the water tank just behind the return pump makes the water changes much faster (my 90 uses gravity and my 180 uses the return pump and the water changes in the 180 are accomplished in a 10th the time!).

I've read a couple of articles in the last year that suggest macro algea is much more efficient than mangroves (I know I will catch grief for the comment), and provides a much richer area for fauna growth. I have both and will not use mangroves in the future.

Finally, if there is any way you can plumb your surge pump level with your main tank you can save lots of energy and fill the surge devices much more quickly, hence, more water flow.
 

on the spot

New member
on the spot - I haven't found internal pumps that were really efficient (water volume vs. power consumed). Can you recommend one?

I run a wavebox in my 96x36 with two MP40's, and three Tunze 6100. They are older, but run just fine, move a ton of water, and cost less to run than my return pump.

Most of the prop pumps available should meet your volume vs. consumption requirements.
 

Lavoisier

Premium Member
on the spot - I haven't found internal pumps that were really efficient (water volume vs. power consumed). Can you recommend one?

I was curious about the efficiency question as well and did a little research. In Kansas City I pay $.09474 kWh so below is what it would cost me per year to run:

One (1)-Reeflo Barracuda Gold Pump, 4680 GPH--* Average Wattage: 237W=$192.84/yr

Four (4)Tunze Turbelle Stream 6085

"¢ Flow rate: 2,100 GPH
"¢ Energy consumption: 14 Wx4=56w=$45.33/yr

2 Vortech MP40 9 to 28 Watts or 1 MP60 10 to 60 Watts may be a little cheaper that the Tunze over the course of a year but not by a whole lot.
 

karimwassef

New member
Lavoisier - good comparison. That's what I looking for.

When comparing the internal and external pumps though, I found that I needed to compare their volume throughput at the same height of water being pumped to be fair. So, for my return pump, I would be going up 4 ft from sump to main. For my skimmer, I would be going up 6 ft from sump to skimmer water level...
 

karimwassef

New member
Lavoisier - on the surge pump level with the main tank... I like the idea and it would be more efficient. I assume you mean to take the pump's inlet from the main tank's overflow directly (or main tank itself) instead of the sump?
 

Lavoisier

Premium Member
Lavoisier - good comparison. That's what I looking for.

When comparing the internal and external pumps though, I found that I needed to compare their volume throughput at the same height of water being pumped to be fair. So, for my return pump, I would be going up 4 ft from sump to main. For my skimmer, I would be going up 6 ft from sump to skimmer water level...

Yes, good point.

I thought the original post from OntheSpot about internal pumps referred to water movement in the DST and he was suggesting you look at those instead of a surge device. Have had a 5g carlson devise on my 90g for many years I love a surge and would encourage you to keep it (them) in your design. How large are you thinking for the surges?
 

karimwassef

New member
I was thinking of two 5 gallons buckets first. 8 gallon in 360 isn't much (2%), but it'll give me a chance to see how well the overflow handles it (noise, bubbles, etc...).

Once established, I'd like to hit 5% with two 10 gallon tanks delivering 9 gallons each.
 

Nathan.Titulaer

New member
Personally I would not plumb my RODI right to the sump. I have a tank that holds 5 gallons I manually top off each week. If your top off valve fails, which it probably will when you are on vacation, it i will overflow the tank and kill everything from the salinity swing. If mine fails I dump 5 gallons of fresh in to a 320 gallon system. It also alerts my to a problem if I start going through more top off then usual.
 

uncleof6

New member

I would run a Reeflo Barracuda on this tank as the main pump.

1) Bio balls and trickle filters have been relegated to the obsolete file. There is some value to them, however, the issues they deal with, are dealt with by rock, sand, and all surfaces of the system (including inside the plumbing,) so there is no need for a separate dedicated area that does nothing that produce nitrates. There is never a problem with the production of nitrates. What needs to be dealt with in marine systems, are the dissolved organics, and there is only one method that deals with them directly: Foam Fractionation aka protein skimmer, and following this, the reduction of nitrate in the system.

2) RDSB's have specific requirements. Unless the DSB is in the main food chain i.e. in the main display tank, they should be run independent of, and separate from any other life. They need to be given strong flow, across the surface of the DSB (a few inches tops) using clean filtered water, otherwise they turn into garbage dumps. There should be NO rock, macro, mangroves, snails, or any other life aside from bacteria. As an guide, a five gallon bucket with 60lbs of fine oolitic sand in it, and a few inches of water over the sand should flow around 200gph. These things should be power fed, not gravity fed.

3) Back in the technology boom with aquariums, this would be affectionately be called a nuclear power plant, and I think it is about 20 times more complex than it needs to be. I really think you need to get rid of all the fanciness, and start with the basics, and then go from there. For instance, Durso drains are not going to reliably handle the flow for this tank, the physics do not allow it. You should be working on your overflow, drain and return system, then develop a reasonable sump (all in one) before you start considering surge devices which will most likely affect the drain/overflow system--and are of questionable real value anyway; and you would be better served with several vortechs, and a couple direction adjustable power heads to get movement in the corners of the tank.

4) You are concerned with flood risk etc. The more complicated the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain.
 

karimwassef

New member
thanks uncle for all the detailed feedback. This is exactly the conversation I was looking for.

For the DSB, I have it plumbed in the main flow, so the surface water in the refugium section will be high. I'm assuming that this will be sufficient to create sand-level flow of 200gph. I can see that the live rock can impact this flow, but why would the presense of macroalgae or mangroves interfere with the DSB?

For the overflow, I have a 6" x 96" section of the main tank to handle the overflow and 2 x 2" drain lines (durso top) to handle the flow to the sump. I have a third emergency 2" overflow in case the quiet durso's fail.

My sumps are intentionally large (40g each) to give me more room to optimize.

I totally agree that complexity can deal chaos, so I am trying to remove unnecessary technologies (had doubts about wet/dry all along). Also didn't include UV (still thinking about that one) and not sure about the benefits of auto-dosing (in for now).

I personally don't like in-tank pumps. I find them very expensive for their performance and cosmetically unattaractive. I want the tank to look as devoid of technology as possible. So the surges are really the only way I know to move sufficient volume for a healthy reef.
 
Top