New Deodronephthya sp. study group?

As far as culturing stations, I wondered the same but having gotten advice from those with more experience keeping nonphoto tanks it seems like it might be kind of impractical. If the numbers cited in the article about the equivalent amounts of shellfish diet and live algae culture are even close to correct, pretty huge cultures would have to be maintained.
 
@Beez Hi Beez there is a product (in Germany) which is invented to dose frozen food its based on a peltier element this will save you a fridge. If you follow this link you will get the idea. The article is in German but with babelfish you can get it readable I think.

http://archiv.korallenriff.de/frostfutterautomat.html




@ everybody else why would it be that very high unnatural levels off phyto are key factor in this experiment. Or do you guys think that the complete picture here is more important. I noticed a few things and more important in what order off importancy would everybody put point 1 to 5:

1)Constant PH at all times? ( I think this is impossible in a mixed photo<> non-phototank.)
2)Linear current.
3)Vodka dosing (elevated bacterio plankton?)
4)Constant temperature at 76 F
5) brachionis (rotifiers) and more important I believe brachionis eggs are also present in Roti-fest.


And mabey elevated levels off nitrate and fosfate play a role.

I'm not sure what other technical stuff is used like activated carbon or ozon.

Cheers

Danny Dame
 
Beez, I actually designed a very similar feeding apparatus to what you are mentioning. I use a small dorm fridge to keep my shellfish diet and a mixture of roti-feast, golden pearls, and prawn ova cold. The mixture is held in a 2-liter bottle and added to the tank via a LM3 remote pump. The shellfish diet is held in a feeding pump bag and dosed via a medical feeding pump. I use an aqualifter pump to keep the mixture mixed. It draws in air within the fridge and pushes it into the bottle. This way I'm not adding much heat to the fridge. The aqualifter actually sits outside the fridge. The shellfish diet does not need stirring (unlike DT's) because it is soooo thick. In fact, you don't want to stir it this way because it will basically act like an overactive skimmer - foamy mush everywhere.

The problem that I've found with this method lies in the amount of travel the food has to take before it reaches the tank. You want to shorten the distance as much as possible and have the dosing fast enough so that it doesn't completely foul the food by the time it gets there. IMO, the syringe pump method would actually be much simpler and easy - except when you're going on vacation. I would imagine that most of the non-photo corals, gorgonians, etc should be able to manage a few days without such heavy feedings. But, if you're leaving for quite some time, you might do well to have such a system. Personally, I would try to find someone to handle feeding while I'm gone.
 
You know, I've been through all this stuff. A syringe pump is the best way to go, for a lot of reasons, for tanks of 180 gallons or less. The more mixing and bubbling and porting of liquids, the more problems you have in many ways.

For those of you who haven't worked with these mixtures before, you need to carefully review the mixture, the dry weight composition of the mixture, and the equivalent amounts, when you start thinking of substituting live phytoplankton. I just hate to see you wasting your time doing things if you haven't got those ideas in your head yet about the absolute dry weight amounts Chuck is infusing, and the importance of continuous infusion to maintain adequate cell counts. Also, please remember that Chuck has passed one year with this method- vary it carefully, it takes awhile to see why it works the way it does.

Danny: you raise an interesting point as to whether this infusion amount is higher than natural levels. On a clarity basis, it probably is a little higher than some crystal-clear areas in which Dendronephthya are seen. Yet, according to Chuck, and in my own tank, water clarity is good, suggesting that the cell count for phytoplankton is grossly not over 50,000 cells/cm3. I assume Red Sea cell counts are in the 5000-50,000 range; and in areas such as Thailand where Dendros are aquacultured, I have receiveed reports of obviously green tinted water.

So, I believe that is is necessary to infuse about 50 gallons equivalent of dense phytoplankton culture per 180 gallons per 24 hours to maintain a natural cell count!This of course means that there is a tremendous removal rate.

It would be interesting to see if this removal rate could be reduced, such as by removing the substrate.
 
Thanks guys for the feedback!!! And thanks to Dr. Matthews for a great writeup on Stottlemire's tank and for establishing the best thread on RC:D
 
Charles - can you set those syringe pumps to refill on the reset stroke? Seems like I saw an example with a two-way valve with two tubes on the end of the syringe so it could pull in new liquid on the reset stroke and then deliver the infusion on the down stroke. This could refill from the 600ml mix you did in the beaker and dose 10 times (10 days?) before you would have to remix it.

Combined with the idea of the attached fridge to keep the shellfish diet/roti-feast mix fresh for those ten days with the syringe pump set to auto-refill and you may be able to take a vacation with this style tank after all. :idea:

I don't know maybe I am reaching too far here with the vacation. :rolleyes:

I did read through the information on the shellfish diet concentrate. This stuff is quite potent. 5 different phytoplankton species and very concentrated with 1 quart replacing the equivalent of 475 gallons of "live phytoplankton"!

I see now that live cultures would be tough. Not only would I have to farm a bunch of phytoplankton but I would have to farm 5 different types and then be able to condense the harvest into a concentrate to avoid dosing large amounts of culture medium into the tank. Shellfish Diet seems to be a well designed and vvery robust phyto feed. I wonder what the dry weight is on the phyto-feast and dt's?
 
Hi Sam

I don't know if a syringe pump or other device might be rigged with a reservoir and refrigerator for long term infusion. It gets very tricky trying to RELIABLY infuse very small amounts continuously over long periods of time. I havaen't been able to do it. No doubt, someone really clever will do it: I hope you can and tell me how!

The dry weight question is interesting, I don' tknow the answer, but I do know it's WAY lower in the live products. Roughly the dilution factor looks to be about ten to one going to a live product.

I personally doubt that the live product makes a difference in this method because the turnover is so rapid. If you dose phyto and watch, most of it is cleared in minutes to a few hours. There is presumably huge advestion into the substrate; also, I suspect, onto bacterial films and all surfaces, where it is promptly consumed. So, the retention time is not important in this type of setup as it is consumed so quickly.

I share your dream of a simpler system, with increased retention time of live algae. I continue working on simple systems without skimmers, using only inorganic nutrients; basically increasing primary production. I've really been researching this for years. But, bottom line: I haven't gotten it to work! It takes a lot of the fun out of it, but to keep these things, so far I've had to feed a lot, and clean a lot.
 
Dr. Matthews (or anyone else),

Do you have any more details that have not yet been discussed about Peter Wilkens' methods? I'd especially be interested in more information about the specific foods he used and in the frequency of his sand stirring....

On that subject, my tentative plan is to use a faux hardbottom and no sand in my system, and provide a low flow settling area in the sump to catch detritus which will then be kicked up into the aquarium periodically via submersible pumps on timers. Any thoughts on what frequency would be best? Also, would this be as effective as stirring sand, or is the sand a necessary part of the equation?
 
Anyone know if there is a good way to measure phytoplankton cell count in system water? Since maintaining a high phyto cell count in our systems seems to be one of the keys to success, having a good way to measure that would be very useful. Otherwise, how do we really know if we are doing enough dosing? I don't really trust a simple "x-amount of phyto per day per volume of aquarium" calculation. I don't want to wait to see if, four months down the line, the dendro shows signs of starvation.

One thing that came to mind was to use a hemocytometer. The problem with that would be making sure to measure just phyto and not every other small micron-sized piece of dust or organism.
 
Wouldn't it be quicker just to use an automated cell counter then? YOu could just take a vial and run it on a coulter counter or something and see what the particle count was. Just don't tell the lab manager :D And run a cleaning cycle after the count!
 
Unless a phytoplankton cell has the relative same size and chemical makeup as a white blood cell, I don't think the number you would get on an automated cell counter would be accurate. It would also really muck up the machine. A hemocytometer is definately the way to go.
 
Re: Idea for an auto feeder

Re: Idea for an auto feeder

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11838145#post11838145 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by beez
office refrigerator that would hold maybe 2-3 gallons of saltwater plus a couple weeks supply of Reed's shellfish diet/rotifeast. Keeping the mix inside the fridge should allow everything to be mixed together without necessarily being used right away.

Reed advises against mixing Shellfish Diet with saltwater and storing it for any period, refrigerated or not. The second you mix it with saltwater it comprimise the product storage ability as well as you'll have settlement issues that aerition is not the solution (think protein skimmer ;) ). Reed also advise not to mix Roti-Feast or any of the IA or RN products with saltwater for anything but immediate usage.

Every automated dosing system that commercially employees IA/RN products does so with the actual product. The IRC (Intensive Rotifer Culture systems) all use a perislatic doser with a dorm fridge with a large container of IA.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11847612#post11847612 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by aninjaatemyshoe
Anyone know if there is a good way to measure phytoplankton cell count in system water? Since maintaining a high phyto cell count in our systems seems to be one of the keys to success, having a good way to measure that would be very useful. Otherwise, how do we really know if we are doing enough dosing? I don't really trust a simple "x-amount of phyto per day per volume of aquarium" calculation. I don't want to wait to see if, four months down the line, the dendro shows signs of starvation.

One thing that came to mind was to use a hemocytometer. The problem with that would be making sure to measure just phyto and not every other small micron-sized piece of dust or organism.

SD cell count doesn't change much at all so you can pretty much count on the calculation being accurate for your needs. Commercial growers will check incoming SD for cell counts but only because their margin of error is FAR tighter then any we as marine hobbyists need to worry about unless we're running a very sterile breeding program.

You best bet would to take counts on what ever your going to be putting in, rather then tryign to count what is in suspesion. Unless you plan on learning what all the phyto cells look like, counting you cells in aquarium water is going to be quite a burden.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11831415#post11831415 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Stottlemire
GReshamH,

How are you ? I have not heard from you in a while. How is the set up you were working on going?

Chuck

It's been shelved for the time being(way to busy right now). Other have though of the same set-up, just look at the Peltier device listed in this thread. Almost a dead ringer of what I thought of like 5 years ago :lol:
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11864515#post11864515 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by GreshamH
SD cell count doesn't change much at all so you can pretty much count on the calculation being accurate for your needs. Commercial growers will check incoming SD for cell counts but only because their margin of error is FAR tighter then any we as marine hobbyists need to worry about unless we're running a very sterile breeding program.

You best bet would to take counts on what ever your going to be putting in, rather then tryign to count what is in suspesion. Unless you plan on learning what all the phyto cells look like, counting you cells in aquarium water is going to be quite a burden.


I'm not so concerned about trusting the cell count of the product I'm using. I assume that, in the long run, I'm averaging what the product declares. However, I am interested in the phyto consumption rate of my tank. There are so many things in the average tank that will quickly consume the phyto that we add. There really is no way to calculate the rate of removal of phytoplankton. The best thing to do would be to measure it to gain an understanding the rate of removal for your particular tank. How else would we be able to know if we are in fact maintaining the target amount of cells/mL (aside from waiting to see if the dendro or whatever does well)?

I suspected that it would be quite tedious to try to measure phytoplankton cell counts. I was just hoping that there was some relatively easy method out there...
 
I've had a piece growing for almost a year now. It's inside a cave so hard to photograph. But, I've been using a product called Liquid Life and since I started I've noticed the piece seems much more inflated and seems to be getting slightly larger. It's pink and yellow and came attached to a rock. I don't usually take in such corals as I've always assumed they were doomed, but this came as a small hitchhiker on another coral and is hanging in there. I feed all three of the Liquid Life products 3-4 times daily as they are very easy to administer in a pump bottle. There is Coral Plankton, Marine Plankton and Bio Plankton. I do two squirts of each in the morning, one about noon, one at about 7 pm and two about 30 minutes after lights out. I started this as a food source for my corals in my old home tank and have continued with the new. In addition to the corals doing very well with excellent polyp extension (mostly SPS and LPS) that little dendronepthia is hanging in there.
 
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