New Ritteri questions

[joerm13]

Hey all,

I picked up a beautiful new mag 9 days ago from my lfs and have some questions about normal behavior.

I bought the mag still attached to a piece of live rock, acclimated and placed low in the tank (lit by DIY LEDs). I figured it would move itself up to a higher portion in the rockwork. For the first 6 days, it remained in place and fully inflated.

It has since detached itself from the rock and deflated. It remained detached on the bottom of the bare bottom tank and deflated for the last 3 days. It inflated somewhat yesterday for a brief moment. This morning I finally decided to gently pick it up off the bottom since it was face down and move it back into the rock work to see if it would reattach.

When I came home from work today, it appears to be loosely attached to the rock and is not completely deflated anymore. This is a long winded way of asking whether this is normal behavior while the nem continues to acclimate or if I should be worried? How long until the nem is completely acclimated or when should it stop deflating? The mouth has always looked closed and there are no signs of damage or lacerations. Any other recommendations to have success are much appreciated besides treating with cipro as I have already read all that.

Thanks in advance.

 

[olemiss reb]

treating with cipro

Sounds like the best plan at this point.

 

[jwoyshnar]

That doesn't sound good. Water parameters?

 

[hobogato]

i agree with the others, the deflating is definitely not a good sign and might warrant treatment

 

[D-Nak]

Any anemone that fully deflates more than once should be removed and place into a treatment tank and a Cipro regiment should be started.

I actually recommend that anyone who plans to have an anemone should have Cipro on hand prior to receiving the anemone.

Mags are at the top of the list in terms of bad shippers. Unless it's been in another reefer's tank for some time, your chances of survival with one that's been freshly imported are slim without treatment.

 

[joerm13]

Sounds like cipro it is then. Thanks.

 

[sberman]

Ive had mine for 4 weeks this friday. Did almost the exact same thing did the cipro treatment and put back in dt today. Looks real good inflated nice its just kind of trying to decide where it wants to stay now but looks nice and inflaed if i were u i would not wait and start treatment

 

[worm5406]

Out of courousity what are the water parameters?

ph
temp
salinity
nitrate
nitrite
mg

age of tank
type of rock
other livestock

type of light -- LED
What colors?
Led %
Light time frame (ie 6a-4p)

PH/Flow type and power

 

[joerm13]

I am trusting all of your anecdotal evidence about the cipro treatment and I will give it a try. I cannot find any scientific studies on this treatment and my trusty source has this to say: <I don't suggest exposing this anemone to an anti-microbial. Not of much probable value, and considerable potential downside. Bob Fenner>.

However, I would rather try something that seems to have worked for a considerable number of people on here instead of watching the nem waste away.

 

[sberman]

Two of the top people on here d-nak and worm have given me good advise in the past i would trust there experience just my 2 cents

 

[ca1ore]

Well, no official statistical study, you are correct; but there are enough documented stories here to strongly suggest that treating these anemones with antibiotics improves survival rates dramatically. In my own direct experience with four Mags I am 'batting' .750. Of the three that survived, two were given antibiotic treatments that I believe saved them.

It is also my experience that a healthy Mag never deflates - or if it does, it is just localized. My longest living Mag, before I sold it, was almost 5 years and it never deflated even once; my current Mag went through the daily deflate/inflate cycle prior to Cipro treatment and has not done it once since.

 

[joerm13]

Tank parameters:

365g - 10' L x 3' W x 20" T
Technically only been setup for about 6 months, but I transferred everything from my 265g which had been setup for about a year and a half including all rock, water, fish, a few corals.

ph - 8.3
temp - 77 F
alk - 9.2
ca - 390
mg - 1220 - slowly bringing back up to 1380 range
salinity - 35 ppt with refractometer
nitrate - undetectable on outdated test kit, but may be accurate due to the fact there are only two fish in the tank
nitrite and ammonia - undetectable
phosphate - undetectable on Red Sea test kit

I understand that the undetectable nitrate and phosphate are not necessarily good things since photosynthetic life forms needs these elements to survive. However, I don't think low nitrate/phosphate levels would have an immediate impact on a nem. As I continue to add fish to the tank these levels will increase slightly. In the meantime, I have been feeding my two clowns heavily. In fact, I thought now would be the best time to try to get a mag acclimated since the parameters are very easy to control when there is not a heavy bioload in the tank.

Rock started out as Marco dry rock. Now it is all completely covered in coralline. Tank is light on rock as I like swimming room for fish. About 175 lbs in tank and another 60 lbs in the sump.

I have a few small sps frags - green birdsnest, a couple of cheap brown acros, scroll coral, large rock of gsp and xenia, small mushroom rock, rather large mont. cap. coral, three small frags of frogspawn and torch, large flower pot, and one Duncan with about 5 heads. Polyp extension and growth are excellent. Fish right now only include a black and white occ. and a black ice occ. (I lost all of my fish a few months ago to what I believe was a velvet outbreak, many of which I had for 4 years or so. Tank was left fallow for about 3 months. Yes I quarantine and treat all new arrivals, but somehow it slipped through and that is a whole other discussion which I actually posted about if you search my other posts)

When I put the nem in the tank, I moved all corals to opposite side, mostly for their own safety and to minimize any alleopathic effects. I cannot remember all of the details of my LEDs because it was such a process building them that I have tried to forget. I do know I used a 50/50 mix of royal blue and white Cree 3W LEDs. They hang about 14" from the surface of the water and right now I do not have any screens or anything over the tank since there are no fish to worry about jumping out. Right now the LEDs are run at 70% from about 2 pm until 1 am. I used them over my 265g with good results and that was a much taller tank. I doubled the number of LEDs when I set up the 365g. I want to say they have 60 degree optics but I could be wrong.

The nem was placed in an area where it would receive good flow from one my MP40s. I think that pretty much sums it up.

 

[joerm13]

I am trusting all of your anecdotal evidence about the cipro treatment and I will give it a try. I cannot find any scientific studies on this treatment and my trusty source has this to say: EDIT I don't suggest exposing this anemone to an anti-mircrobial. Not of much probable value, and considerable potential downside. Bob Fenner.

However, I would rather try something that seems to have worked for a considerable number of people on here instead of watching the nem waste away.

Not sure why the Bob Fenner quote did not appear in my earlier post.

 

[ca1ore]

Whether a new Mag does well or not has very little to do with water quality (unless of course your water quality is crap - which yours isn't), it is all about the fact that these animals don't ship well and often develop bacterial infections. I've never seen that quotation from Bob Fenner, so not sure exactly what he meant. Certainly never a good idea to treat the DT with antibiotics, but I think if you follow the Cipro protocol as described by Minh, you will improve the chances of survival for your Mag significantly.

 

[worm5406]

I agree to the cipro.

The reason I asked about the levels is to see and have a benchmark. There are quite a few times that we have seen people doing a few things that will **** off a mag. We all know they are sensitive and some are more than others.

It is not to call out anyone but just to see how they check/ what they check/ or even if they check for certain items.

A tank that is fresh <6 months should not have a anemone under MOST conditions. Now a move/existing LR and a lot of other factors throw a wrench in the cycle of any tank.

joerm13 looks to be experienced and I am sure gone through the same bumps that we all have.

SO... when are you starting the Cipro? Yes there are documented cases here that show it does work. I guess we need to compile it and make a true 'paper' on it.

 

[joerm13]

Can't start the cipro until tomorrow night. I went to 2 vets this morning to try to get some and neither would prescribe it (including the vet I have been taking my dogs to for 8 years). I had to catch a flight late this morning for work, but I will be back tomorrow night and I overnighted some cipro from Fosters/Smith. Hopefully it won't be too late for the nem.

Yes, I do have a lot of experience and I do not purchase anything without researching and considering proper husbandry first. Don't let my lack of posts fool you...I joined RC in 2003 I think, just do not post much for whatever reason.

When I got the mag I figured I would follow Bob Fenner's advice and not treat. However, if I followed all of his advice I would never have bought the mag as he states they are just about impossible to keep alive long term and discourages anyone from even attempting to keep them.

I'll keep you guys posted. Thanks again.

 

[worm5406]

Thanks!

Good luck on your trip.

Look forward to seeing how it turns out.

When you get a chance can you put some pictures up of it?

 

[ca1ore]

When I got the mag I figured I would follow Bob Fenner's advice and not treat. However, if I followed all of his advice I would never have bought the mag as he states they are just about impossible to keep alive long term and discourages anyone from even attempting to keep them.

Hope you are successful at nursing your Mag back to health. My sense is that they respond pretty well to the antibiotic treatment even if in pretty bad shape. Clearly Fenner is out of date when it comes to treatments, however, he is not wrong about long term care. I don't think there is much question that the vast majority of the animals that come into our tanks live a far shorter life than they would in the wild. No matter how much you know, or care for these animals, a reef tank is 'skating on the thin edge of disaster'. Just a matter of time before a tank crash occurs.

 

[joerm13]

Well I am sad to say that I came home last night to start the cipro treatment but it was too late. The nem was clearly dead.

Do you guys think that the rather quick demise (10 days) of this nem was due to the general nature of mags being poor shippers and prone to infections? Something that a cipro treatment might have helped, even though the nem was healthy looking in the beginning? I would suspect that if there was something wrong with the environmental conditions of my tank (all parameters posted above), the mag would have lasted longer than 10 days and maybe slowly declined over a period of a couple of months. I ask not for my own ego, but in case I decide to try another mag.

Maybe a new thread should be started for this question, but for all who have ever lost a mag, how long did it/they survive in your tank and did you try to treat it/them with antibiotics either upon arrival or after noticing the mag not doing well?

 

[worm5406]

Sorry for the loss.

After the cipro was posted there have been many that have shown ++ results. The shipping rate / death is so high.

I remember as a kid that a few friends parents had tanks (1970's and 1980's). I only saw one person that had an anemone. I was fascinated with it. I asked all sorts of questions (prob was a pain at the time too) and all I ever heard was a salt wter tank is so much work and that an anemone only last a few months.

As we all know these creatures can be kept under the right conditions.

The cipro aspect has shed a light on the health and well keeping of them. I have not heard of multiple treatments, yet, so this is a good thing.

With the history of your tank and parameters I believe that shipping was the cause.

The reason that I have been asking so many questions is a few LFS/bad information has been passed to some people and, to be blunt, I would much rather help the requestor with knowing the history of others that have been in their shoes.

As has been discussed, YES, people have had luck with 'quick starts' but it could be anything during the startup that is different between tanks.

I wish you good luck in the future. You are prepared now, with cipro, and should not be worried on your next purchase.

I would make sure to run carbon to clean out some of the remnants of the anemone, if I were you.