Noisy Vortech DrySide FIX!!

Info on RC Bearings
I will say I am sorry for the long reading but this will give you a lot of info on RC Bearings.
I can go on and on on this but I will not just what I give you here.

Bearings Made of Chrome Steel - SAE 52100

The most common material used to produce the load carrying components in precision ball bearings, roller bearings, and tapered roller bearings is 52100 chrome steel. These components are the bearings inner and outer rings, balls and rollers. The chemical composition of this steel has high carbon and about 1.5% chromium content. Using controlled processing and heat-treating methods the finished bearing components have high strength to resist cracking and a hard surface to resist subsurface rolling contact fatigue. The typical surface hardness for bearing components made from this material ranges from 60- 64 on the Rockwell hardness C scale (Rc).

Extra clean 52100 chrome steel

The raw steel used to produce high precision miniature bearings is processed with additional melting steps. The result is a type of steel with very uniform fine grain material structure, the bearing contact surfaces can be super finished very smooth so the bearing is very quiet.

The most common heat treating method for chrome steel is to thru harden the steel in a controlled atmosphere furnace. Bearings manufactured from chrome steel can operate at continuous temperatures up to 120°C.

Where higher temperatures are encountered, it is possible to Heat Stabilize the bearing components. By varying the heat treating process, bearings can be produced so they are capable of operating at temperatures of 220°C, and higher. For these applications, the components must be subjected to a tempering treatment at a higher temperature corresponding to the service temperature. This elevated tempering treatment has a detrimental effect on the hardness of the material and the load carrying capacity of the bearing is reduced.

SAE 52100 is an excellent general purpose bearing steel. Due to its excellent hardness and wear resistance, it exhibits good fatigue life in rolling element bearings. However, the corrosion resistance of chrome steel is poor because of the low chromium content. The surfaces of the bearings must be protected with a coating of rust inhibitor or oil to stop oxidation.


Bearings Made of Stainless Steels

Stainless steel materials are used to make bearing components because it is more resistant to surface corrosion due to the higher content of chromium (~18%) with the addition of nickel. The chromium reacts with oxygen to form a layer of chromium oxide on the surface, creating a passive film.

Martensitic Stainless Steel - AISI 440C

The carbon content in 400 series stainless steels is high enough so it can be hardened using standard heat-treating methods up to Rc58. Due to the lower hardness, the load carrying capacity is 20% lower in bearings made from this material, than they are with 52100 chrome steel bearings. The level of carbon content means the components are magnetic. The corrosion resistance is "œgood", when 440C material is exposed to fresh water and mild chemicals. This material is primarily used by US bearing manufacturers.

Miniature bearings made from conventional 440C stainless steel will be slightly noisy because the large carbides that normally concentrate at the grain boundaries are exposed in the raceway finishing process. Larger bore bearings are not as affected by this condition. Bearings made from 400 series stainless steel can operate at higher temperatures than chrome steel, up to 250°C continuous. Bearings made from this material are generally more expensive than chrome steel bearings.

Martensitic Stainless Steel "“ ACD34 / KS440 / X65Cr13

Many miniature bearing manufacturers make their rings and balls with a stainless steel material with slightly lower carbon and chromium content than AISI 440C known under several names including ACD34, KS440, and X65Cr13. After heat treatment, this material has smaller carbides so the bearing will have superior low noise characteristics while offering the same corrosion resistance as 440C. For bearings produced from this material, some manufacturers will publish the same load ratings as those for chrome steel. This is due to the use of tightly controlled heat treating methods that result in hardness up to Rc 60. Although this is one of the most widely used stainless steels for ball bearings, there is no AISI designation for this material.

Martensitic Stainless Steel "“ SV30

Martensitic stainless steel can be modified during the processing of the raw steel by lowering the carbon content and introducing nitrogen as an alloying element. The nitrogen increases the saturation of the chromium which transforms into chromium nitrides, instead of chromium carbides. The result is a high strength, high hardness steel with a superior microstructure that extends fatigue life by as much 100% (double) in certain applications. This material also offers enhanced corrosion resistance, even better than 440C and ACD34 "“ up to 5 times better. Bearings manufactured from this material can carry a price premium of 20 - 40% but often can be more than offset by the gains in superior performance. More information is available in the SV30 Technical Information Sheet.

Heat Treatment of Bearing Steels

When bearing steels are in their soft (unhardened) state, metallurgists refer to their structure as being in the pearlite state. In order to harden the steel it must be heated to a very high temperature and then cooled very rapidly. When heated in the heat treat furnace to 1,750°F, the structure transforms from pearlite to what is known as austenite. After quenching (very rapid cooling), the structure then transforms from austenite to martensite. Once transformed to martensite, the steel becomes very hard. However, at this point it is not considered "thermally stabilized". This is because not all of the austenite transforms into martensite during the quenching process. This phenomenon is called "retained "austenite".

If the steel is not thermally stabilized, the retained austenite will over an extended period of time (possibly years) transform into martensite. This transformation is accompanied by an increase in volume that is called metallurgical growth (not to be confused with thermal growth). Metallurgical Growth will cause a change in dimension and form of any steel parts such as bearings' even at room temperature.

While not a problem with low precision commodity type bearings, in high precision (ABEC 5P, 7P, 9P) miniature bearings this lack of dimensional stability can cause problems. In order to eliminate this unwanted metallurgical growth, the steel must be subjected to thermal stabilization. This is accomplished by repeated cycles of chilling at -120 F and tempering to transform a large percentage of the retained austenite to martensite.

Bearings Made of Ceramic Materials

Bearings made with ceramic materials fall into a specialty niche in the bearing industry. The most common arrangement is a hybrid bearing, usually with stainless steel rings and ceramic balls. The most common ceramic material used is silicon nitride. Balls made from this material are hard, up to Rc78, and have a very smooth surface. Hybrid bearings are more expensive than all stainless steel bearings.
 
Daniel, this is good information to know, and I agree with your assessment of shielded versus sealed bearings"¦..and ABEC ratings. I actually set the standard a little higher and wanted an ABEC of 5 or better. Now here's the issue; Find me a sealed bearing of ABEC 5 or better (that is not ceramic) at the size of 7 x 14 x 5 mm. In searching, I got the impression that this is not a common size bearing. Now I didn't do an extensive search, and because I'm lazy, relied on the different bearings other posters listed in this thread. This stainless steel shielded bearing from Boca was the "œbest" I could find.


In regard to heat, again, real good information. However, I only heated up my bearings by resting them on radiators in my house. This is a forced hot water system, where I can put my hands on the radiator"¦..I'm making a wild guess of maybe 140 degrees F. For bearings (and grease), this temperature is nothing. I am highly confident that the current noise I'm experiencing is not from overheating the bearings during installation. Either it's a properly functioning bearing that produces a slight amount of noise, or a design flaw in the bearing or Vortech motors.


I'm also wondering about what we are calling "œnoise." The noise that my MP10 was making prior to the bearing replacement was obvious an issue with bearings. However, the noise it is now generating may be its normal operating noise. I'm sure this bearing in an RC car or skateboard or whatever they are used for, the amount of noise generated is not an issue. That is, the users don't care if the bearings produce a slight bit of noise. But we do since the use is within our living spaces and the noise distracts from sitting and enjoying our tanks. So I thinking I actually have good bearings that produce a slight amount of noise when spinning"¦.and the search has to continue to find that one bearing that runs noise free.


And here's the sad part"¦"¦I now know more about bearings then I ever wanted to know! :headwally:


Good stuff Daniel!
 
Hey Paul,
Are you going to the Club meeting today?
I will also look into the bearing for you that is sealed in your size.
 
Daniel,

1.) No I won’t be at the meeting.

2.) Yes, that is the correct size.

3.) And the three bearings you reference are ceramic or hybrids…..too many mentions of these being too noisy. That’s why I stayed away from them and looked at steel.
 
I just replaced my bearings. Unfortunately, it is not silent...not even close. Much louder than before. I thought I did everything correctly, but I suppose not?

Is there a break in period for the new bearings or should I notice a difference right away? Any other ideas?

I'm thinking I should put the old bearing back in. :headwally:
 
i have a older mp10 3-4 years old and it started making noise dry side only i took it apart got the bearings off and there are no number or markings on the bearings
is there a one size fits on the mp10 or is there different models
 
as far as i have seen or can tell, ecotech has never changed bearing sizes.
this goes for MP10's as well as MP40's
 
Because of this fantastic write-up by dahenley, I purposely purchased a noisy MP10 at a fantastic price. I ran into the problem in reading every post here, and trying to figure out which brand and type bearing to purchase. So I re-read every post again and this time summarized any post that included the bearing type and a comment on noise/performance. NOTE, FOR MP10 ONLY. I've also included a link to that bearing and the respective price. Here's what I found (my comments in parentheses):


Post 353 (Zypharus): Boca, SMR147-ZZ #5 "œquieter than brand new" (Note ABEC 5) $8.95/each


Post 329 (JAustin): RC bearings.com SMR687ZZ "œquiet as ever"

(I could not find this bearing on RC's site. However, I found an earlier post that had THIS LINK, but this stated "œNot Found.")


Post 311 (gregzz4): ACER 7X14x5MM Ceramic Ball Bearing "œnoisy" (note, these are ceramic) 8.99/each


Post 298 (Jarred1): No Brand or site, just says MR147-2RS "œI can only hear the pump when I am right next to it"

(I found Boca carries this number: MR147-2RS. Interestingly, according to the Boca site, it's only an ABEC 1)(Since found that the bearing number is for the bearing only"¦.this could come ABEC 1 "“ 7, dependent on the bearing. The ones I found on Boca were 1's.)



Post 229 (shaggss): VXB 687-2RS (off of ebay) "œThey are now dead silent" (Could not find ABEC ranking)(note that these have blue seals) $6.90/each, free shipping


Post 218 (kakalakasha): Boca SMR147C-YZZ #5 NB2 "œonly SLIGHTLY quieter" (note these are ceramic)


Post 170 (FiReC): VXB 687-2RS "œstill loud as hell"

(note that these are the same VXB number as the ebay bearing above, but differ in that the ebay ones have blue seals and these have black seals.) (Have since found that the color of the seal signifies the type of grease"¦"¦.Blue seal is supposedly for cold weather applications (i.e. snowmobiles))
$4.95/each (with shipping, about $7/each)





MY HALF-COCKED UNSCIENTIFIC ANALYSIS OF BEARING PERFORMANCE TO HELP DETERMINE WHICH BEARING TO BUY

Ceramic just sounded like a problem when it comes to noise. I have no doubt that these are some of the best bearings going, but when one of our criteria is noise, they are a potential problem.

With the remaining steal bearing, here's what I did: Any with reports of noise were immediately eliminated. I also eliminated those with an ABEC rating of less than 5. That left two bearing; Boca's SMR147-ZZ #5 and Ebay VXB 687-2RS (unknown rating.)

I was originally leaning towards purchasing the ebay VXB blue sealed bearing (because of the report of silence and price"¦shipping included), but because I could not find ABEC numbers, I was turned off. The only one left was the BOCA SMR147-ZZ #5, but the lack of shipping info scared me. When I called them they told me anything over $12 ships for free (USPS). So I ordered these two bearing from BOCA tonight.

While I wait for the bearing to arrive, I'm using this great post by dahanley and THIS video posted by toofasst, that shows how to open up the MP10. I've also found the companion video that shows how to put it back together HERE.


When the bearings arrive from BOCA, I'll let you know how the re-assembly goes.


The one off eBay are abec 1, I messages the seller and that is what they told me. It doesn't exactly mean its bad so I might try them anyways.
 
The one off eBay are abec 1, I messages the seller and that is what they told me. It doesn't exactly mean its bad so I might try them anyways.


Please post your results after your rebuild. And bearing info and if it's an MP10 or MP40.


I'm starting to believe the ABEC is not as important as is the amount of lateral forces these radial bearings can take. This is a guess on my part, but I'm believing the noise is coming from the lateral forces on the bearings. They aren't designed for lateral forces, but are exposed to them. Again, these are radial bearings.
 
Please post your results after your rebuild. And bearing info and if it's an MP10 or MP40.


I'm starting to believe the ABEC is not as important as is the amount of lateral forces these radial bearings can take. This is a guess on my part, but I'm believing the noise is coming from the lateral forces on the bearings. They aren't designed for lateral forces, but are exposed to them. Again, these are radial bearings.

this is 100% my feeling on the subject.

there is a needle thrust bearing (flat like a washer) that is the size for MP40's bearings, but its really thin and i didnt look into thickness and spacers to make it work
 
Tried again with a new set of bearing. 0-2 on this project. New bearings are much louder than my stock bearings and I tried to follow the directions as closely as possible. Oh well, needed another vortech anyway.
 
Tried again with a new set of bearing. 0-2 on this project. New bearings are much louder than my stock bearings and I tried to follow the directions as closely as possible. Oh well, needed another vortech anyway.


Where did you get your bearings.....details....so we can figure this out. And from you signature, I'm assuming MP40.
 
From Boca. The recommended bearings from earlier in this thread.

SMR607-ZZ #5
SMR698-ZZ #5

I am just going to order a new dry side at this point. Not worth wasting any more money on bearing. Good thread and I figured there was a chance this would be the result. Such is life. :beer:
 
At this point I have determined that Vortech is a love hate relationship.
And right now I hate vortech, I started to write them a long nasty email but realized that my Gen2 mp40 is long out of warrenty and it will fall on deaf ears.

I too have done the rebuild with Boca Bearings, Stainless ZZ with exact part numbers as listed throughout the thread. My pump is twice as loud as before. I have redone the build 5 times now double and triple checking every step. Before the bearing swap, The pump always made a loud wooshing noise when ramping up and then a loud hum at full speed. The absolute worst is at the lowest power setting when the pumps makes a banging noise. It was so bad that I had my Aquacontroller turn off the Vortech from 5-8pm so dinner wouldn't be ruined with the noise and an angry wife. The pump could be heard a room away unless the tv was on. Now I can hear the pump on the second floor.

My hypothesis is the magnet is out of balance and the bearings were always just fine. I just bought a new wetside so I can rule out that. I have tried three different combinations on the washers to no avail. I am going to email ecotech to try and find out the spring washer order because there seems to be much disagreement onto the order and side they go on throughout this thread.

One thing I haven't tried that some suggested was to make sure the bearing are all the way seated on the shaft. So I will retry that tonight.

Just a side note, my Tunze 6100 that is 7 years old, dead silent. If I wasn't so poor I would replace my vortech with two more 6100's. I hate Vortech at this point.
 
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