Noisy Vortech DrySide FIX!!

[Sisterlimonpot]

Red fish blue fish,

Great recap!

 

[jrpark22000]

Because of this fantastic write-up by dahenley, I purposely purchased a noisy MP10 at a fantastic price. I ran into the problem in reading every post here ....

When the bearings arrive from BOCA, I'll let you know how the re-assembly goes.

I'll add my experience to your list.

I used SMR147-ZZ #5 boca bearings on my mp10 last week. Holy loud batman, I hear the pump in the next room even after a week of break in. I have 3 mp10s and 3 mp40s, this one mp10 is considerably louder than all other the others and is audible over my entire tank. So I took the dryside apart and the motor is noisy without a wetside, out of the plastic housing and without the magnet. I tried every washer spacing combination without a change in noise level. I even went to the trouble to safely apply additional axial and radial loads to the spinning rotor with and without washers, again no audible change. There are no marks on the rotor from rubbing against the stator. The bearings fit tight both on the shaft and into the races. I am very familiar with bearing replacements so installation issues can be rules out. My only conclusion at this point can be they are just loud bearings.

Hopefully you'll have some better results and let us know. I'm not fond of buying numerous bearings to try and find a quiet set.

 

[redfishblewfish]

Darn you jrpark! That means my statistical analysis of n=1, where I found the one and only sure thing was Boca's bearing, is totally meaningless.

That now means, if I may draw another conclusion, that it's a crap-shoot of whether or not you'll end up with a quiet pump after changing the bearings"¦..regardless of the brand/numbered bearing you use.

This stinks!


I'm expecting my bearings in the mail either today** or tomorrow. I'll let you know what I find.


EDIT TO ADD: **Oops, just realized no mail today"¦"¦ Martin Luther King

 

[jrpark22000]

Darn you jrpark! That means my statistical analysis of n=1, where I found the one and only sure thing was Boca's bearing, is totally meaningless.

Sorry redfish. I had done a very similar analysis of this and a few other threads on replacing bearings. Thank you for taking the time to post your results. My conclusion mirrored your almost identically, ruling out ceramic and the others alike. After feeling fairly confidant, I replaced the bearings and was left speechless. After all of the testing this last weekend I was utterly frustrated and hoped to find something I missed, so I reread the entire thread this morning finding your above post.

I'm looking forward to your results while crossing my fingers it'll go better for you. Maybe I received an odd loud bearing.

 

[redfishblewfish]

I apologize, but this “good one time”/”bad the next” is bugging me. Something is just not right. What could cause this to happen? That’s what I’ve been mulling over in my mind. What would one person do that another doesn’t do, or does slightly differently? That’s where my mind is right now.

Now I really don’t know bearings, but I’ve got to believe (or hope) that quality within a set group of bearing is pretty close. So you would think that one ABEC #5 bearing is equal in quality to a second ABEC #5 bearing, and so on. Doesn’t that sound reasonable? Again, my limited understanding of bearings, I would think that an ABEC #5 is certainly better than an ABEC #1 or #2….Yes? So I’m thinking (or again hoping) the bearing is not the issue. We’ve picked an ABEC #5……there is only one grade higher! It can’t be the bearing!


So what could we be doing that causes one to squeal and another just be silent as ever? That’s where my mind is now. Maybe I’m speaking prematurely, because I’ve only taken my MP10 apart, and have not re-assemble, since I haven’t rec’d my new bearings yet. But one thing I noticed when disassembling is that when I started to unscrew the cover plate, there was tension pushing the plate away…..maybe about a 1/16 of an inch. My guess is the thrust washers “pushing” the rotor outward. What would make this pressure differ is how the bearings are seated. The more they are “driven home,” that is, pressed all the way towards the rotor magnet, the less this tension difference. Now, could this tension on the bearing cause for the noise? That is, if one person doesn’t press the bearing all the way on….towards the rotor magnet….could that extra lateral pressure on the bearing cause for the noise?

I know I’m rambling, but I’m just trying to talk through this conundrum. Why good once, but bad the next! Why!

 

[tegee]

Hi Everyone......

I read through most of the posts here over the past year and keep up to date on everyone's experience(s), etc.

To that end.....I have two questions.

My first is, I have (2) MP20's on my 60-gl Cube and can bearing replacement be done on them similar to the MP40's? Are the dry sides on the MP20 the same as the MP40?

Lastly, I have (2) MP60's on my 180-gl sps tank and I am ready to ditch them and go back to Tunze because I can not take the noise anymore. They wine like crazy from day one and Eco-Tech says it is normal and/or inherent to their pumps....VERY frustrating. Has anyone tried doing a bearing replacement on an MP60?

Many thanks and GREAT THREAD and MANY THX to all that have offered their invaluable experience to this annoying issue.

Eco-Tech makes great pumps, but the noise is driving me nuts!

 

[tegee]

Hi Everyone......

I read through most of the posts here over the past year and keep up to date on everyone's experience(s), etc.

To that end.....I have two questions.

My first is, I have (2) MP20's on my 60-gl Cube and can bearing replacement be done on them similar to the MP40's? Are the dry sides on the MP20 the same as the MP40?

Lastly, I have (2) MP60's on my 180-gl sps tank and I am ready to ditch them and go back to Tunze because I can not take the noise anymore. They wine like crazy from day one and Eco-Tech says it is normal and/or inherent to their pumps....VERY frustrating. Has anyone tried doing a bearing replacement on an MP60?

Many thanks and GREAT THREAD and MANY THX to all that have offered their invaluable experience to this annoying issue.

Eco-Tech makes great pumps, but the noise is driving me nuts!

 

[redfishblewfish]

My bearings arrived today from BOCA (SMR147-ZZ #5), for my MP10.


I am still bothered by jrpark's account, so I was a bit apprehensive as I prepared to re-install the new bearings. For some reason I was suspect of lateral forces on the bearings causing the noise, so I wanted to make sure I seated the bearings all the way towards the rotor magnet. So the rotor went into the freezer for a couple hours while the bearings rested on one of the hot radiators in the house"¦ (forced hot water in an older house with cast iron radiators"¦.and frigid outside here in NJ.) In addition, I drilled two pieces of scrap lumber with a 9/32" drill. This is oh-so-slightly larger than the rotor shaft. I used these blocks to very lightly tap the bearing "œhome" using a hammer.

Put all the other pieces back together and plugged the little bugger in. The noise I had prior to the new bearings was gone. I would not call it dead silent, but back to when it was new. You could hear some noise when you are close with an ear towards the pump. I'm happy, (and I guess lucky.)


Here's another observation I made when I was playing with the dryside only. This was most noticeable when I had the pump turned all the way down to the slowest setting. I'm not sure how to describe this. There was a wobble to the pump, which I took as it being out of balance"¦..which I have to believe is the magnet, since that is the weighted flywheel on this thing. I hope that makes sense.


If my memory serves me, I believe someone posted that an RC hobby shop has the equipment to balance RC things. If this is true, I'd like to take my pump/magnet to one of these places and have it balanced. Does anyone have additional info about this?

 

[dahenley]

redfish.
if memory serves me correct, the internal magnet assy is balanced. (i remember there being holes drilled in the center piece for balancing.)

but the external magnet could very well be out of balance.

take the outer mag off and see if you hear the same wable with just the motor running and no magnet. if it is better, then take the outer magnet to a RC R/C hobby shop and if they sell Planes, then they will have a propeller balancing jig. its a few blocks with a shaft. they will mark the propeller and spin it. then they will see how many times the mark comes up on top. (this lets them know if there is a heavy side) if this is the case, then take a drill and just barely take a sliver off. (you wouldn't believe how little it takes to balance one.)

this will let you get your outer mag/steel disk balanced and more in tune haha.

hope this helps. (im sure there are youtube videos on how to do it to a prop. maybe you can do it to your pump magnet too)

 

[dahenley]

Hi Everyone......

I read through most of the posts here over the past year and keep up to date on everyone's experience(s), etc.

To that end.....I have two questions.

My first is, I have (2) MP20's on my 60-gl Cube and can bearing replacement be done on them similar to the MP40's? Are the dry sides on the MP20 the same as the MP40?

Lastly, I have (2) MP60's on my 180-gl sps tank and I am ready to ditch them and go back to Tunze because I can not take the noise anymore. They wine like crazy from day one and Eco-Tech says it is normal and/or inherent to their pumps....VERY frustrating. Has anyone tried doing a bearing replacement on an MP60?

Many thanks and GREAT THREAD and MANY THX to all that have offered their invaluable experience to this annoying issue.

Eco-Tech makes great pumps, but the noise is driving me nuts!

First the easy ones.
MP-20 = MP-40 on the dry side. (and wet side)
the only difference is the controller and power supply. (you can upgrade a 20 to a 40 by buying a controller and power supply. (which turns the pump faster))

I Have yet to need a MP-60, and yet to see someone talk about repairing one as well.

If you run the MP-60 with-out the wet side (say just lying on a table) does it have the same noise, or is it worse with the Wet-side attached?

I ask, because the best way i have found to line up a Vortech is with my ear on the glass and not looking. this allows me to hear the most in-tune /straight marriage of the two.

I know the bearings used in the development of the pump are made for horizontle pressure and not lateral.. (which the pump magnets put lateral pressure on the beggaring)
They could have been designed with a needle bearing (in the flat orientation/thrust style bearing) to help with the noise and maybe help with wear issues.

but who knows.....

 

[redfishblewfish]

Wow, thanks for the quick response!


I should have explained this "œwobble" a little better. It's not heard, but felt. This was when I had the pump in my hand. I could feel a wobble to the pump as it spun. My pump is as silent as a new MP10"¦.so I'm happy.

 

[dahenley]

can you feel it with the metal plate on the shaft? or still feel it without the metal plate (the thing that has the center screw that the wetside magnet feels for haha)

i would think they are mass produced and not balanced.

the inner magnet with the bearings looked to be balanced (it had drill marks on it for computer balancing)

 

[jrpark22000]

My pump is as silent as a new MP10"¦.so I'm happy.

Thanks for the update. I'll reorder bearings and try again.

 

[redfishblewfish]

So maybe I was a bit premature in my favorable response to the Boca bearing change on my MP10. I walked into the fish room today and I can now hear this subject Vortech while standing next to the tank. Right after doing the bearing change, I could not hear the pump unless I moved my ear closer to the pump. Now I could hear it standing next to the tank. I do want to stress that the rebuild greatly reduced the noise. It was originally very loud before doing this DIY. The rebuild greatly reduced this noise, but now I was noticing it more than right after the rebuild. And I though the break-in would have made it quieter! Darn this is a head scratcher.


I was still very suspect of the lateral forces on the bearings. This is the first MP10 for me….I have experience with MP40’s, but not MP10’s. The one thing that bothered me was that the MP40’s require you to set the thickness of the glass, but MP10’s don’t. I know if you set the MP40 for a thick glass, and then put it on a thinner glass, it will be very noisy. So again, I was puzzled why MP10’s didn’t have this option.


I currently have this MP10 on a JBJ 28, which I believe has 6 millimeter thick glass…..just a tad under a ¼ inch. Since the MP10 doesn’t have a thickness setting, I’d make the glass effectively thicker. I first cut a disc out of 1/16 inch acrylic using a 2 ½ inch hole saw, and put this disc behind the wetside. (I first tried this on the dryside, but the heavier weight of the dryside caused it to slip.)

I thought I detected a slight reduction in noise, so I then cut a ¼ inch thick disc out and popped that in. There was a slightly further reduction in noise. So I’m now running my MP10 with this “thickener” disc behind the wetside to help quiet it down. It’s not overly loud…..you can still hear it when standing next to that side of the tank. I’m now a little disappointed with this DIY. I was expecting a quiet pump from this rebuild.

 

[redfishblewfish]

Correction to the post above.....the acrylic disc is 3/16 inches thick. (It was sold as 1/4 inch and I just measured it and it's only 3/16).

 

[Buganddoug]

After you press the the bearing's on. You should have the bearing and shaft come back to room temp before you turn the pump back on or you will damage the bearings. I see things like this all the time.

 

[redfishblewfish]

After you press the the bearing's on. You should have the bearing and shaft come back to room temp before you turn the pump back on or you will damage the bearings. I see things like this all the time.

Interesting Daniel! By the time I had put the pump back together and all, it must have been an hour to an hour and a half. I would think it's up to temperature by then. Also note that the bearings were heated while the rotor was chilled.

 

[Buganddoug]

Yes when the bearing are heated and the rotor was cold it is the best time for the bearing to get damage. They can warp!! Depends on what the bearings are made from (bearing, bearing races and seal) Heat can hurt them. Most of these small bearings have very little grease in them and when they get hot the grease burn off. So now you start off with a new bearing that is running dry. Quite at first but gets loud in no time. That is why I think the best thing to use is a RC Bearing press they are very cheap.
When my MP40ESW bearings go bad I will be replacing them with sealed bearings.

I think most of you are using Shielded Bearings.
Shielded bearings are not sealed and will not prevent leakage of grease or oil.

This is what I will Run in my MP40ESW Sealed Bearings

Sealed bearings come filled with either a high quality grease or oil that should last the life of the bearing.
I will only use ABEC 3 or higher.

Sealed Bearings can be damage from heat if you heat them to high. So RC Press is best.

Just my input

 

[Buganddoug]

OK I was looking at some of the photos of the bearings some of you have posted and they are Shielded Bearings. Not the best for long bearing life and quietness and heat will kill them in no time.
I would try to use Sealed Bearing if you can.

 

[Buganddoug]

Paul
Here is a photo of a Shielded Bearings

Bearing that got to hot

Now a photo of a Sealed Bearing

I hope this helps you and every one out.
Daniel