North Dakota Mini-Ocean
- Thread starter JohnL
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Reefaquariumnut
Premium Member
Update time...
Since the last time I posted the tank took a few turns downhill.
1) My icemaker sprung a leak and flooded my basement, which flooded the tank room as well. Over $17,000 in damages after it was all said and done. So to fix the basement and tank room alot of the equipment had to be taken offline and the tank started its downward spiral.
2) The 150g and 2 QT tanks have been removed from the basement and put into storage in the garage. This atleast got me the chance to give that equipment a once over and clean/repaint the stands.
3) The skimmer sump which gave me some problems over the past two years was re-designed and re-plumbed. The main problem was a leak at the rubber bulkhead when the water level would get to a certain point. I fixed that by turning the sump 90 degrees and re-plumbed with better bulkheads and more redundancy in case something malfunctions...So far (6 months) it has worked as planned.
4) One of the back middle halides cracked during maintenance and went undetected for a couple weeks...The light was still coming on during photo periods, but it turned all the coral in that area pure white...Basically killing them.
5) During the flood/clean-up my calcium reactor bubble chamber was broke and it was never put back online...Bad choice. The corals that actually made it through the flood and clean up got worse and most died. The remaining 10-15 corals were given to a friend and hopefully can be nursed back to health. Luckily, I do have most of my corals spread around the area so in time I could probably get most of them back.
6) The one positive of this whole ordeal was the fact my fish for the most part survived. I lost a couple, but I still have the yellow, purple, naso, and vlamingi tangs...The clarion (whew), flame, and pygmy angels...The mystery and six-line wrasses...The wheeler and diamond gobies...The banner butterflyfish...The 3 clowns...Couple anthias...And last but not least my 12 chromis.
So now I am at a crossroads. Do I try and fix the tank on the go? Do I sell off whats left and shut it down for an extended period of time and re-design the whole system? Yesterday, I was leaning (heavily) to sell everything and be done indefinately. Today, I was looking back at pictures and feel I should try and give it another shot.
If I did give it another shot I still think a system re-design would be in order. I need the tank to be easier to maintain and able to take care of itself (other than feeding) while im gone during the week...Hmmm.
Since the last time I posted the tank took a few turns downhill.
1) My icemaker sprung a leak and flooded my basement, which flooded the tank room as well. Over $17,000 in damages after it was all said and done. So to fix the basement and tank room alot of the equipment had to be taken offline and the tank started its downward spiral.
2) The 150g and 2 QT tanks have been removed from the basement and put into storage in the garage. This atleast got me the chance to give that equipment a once over and clean/repaint the stands.
3) The skimmer sump which gave me some problems over the past two years was re-designed and re-plumbed. The main problem was a leak at the rubber bulkhead when the water level would get to a certain point. I fixed that by turning the sump 90 degrees and re-plumbed with better bulkheads and more redundancy in case something malfunctions...So far (6 months) it has worked as planned.
4) One of the back middle halides cracked during maintenance and went undetected for a couple weeks...The light was still coming on during photo periods, but it turned all the coral in that area pure white...Basically killing them.
5) During the flood/clean-up my calcium reactor bubble chamber was broke and it was never put back online...Bad choice. The corals that actually made it through the flood and clean up got worse and most died. The remaining 10-15 corals were given to a friend and hopefully can be nursed back to health. Luckily, I do have most of my corals spread around the area so in time I could probably get most of them back.
6) The one positive of this whole ordeal was the fact my fish for the most part survived. I lost a couple, but I still have the yellow, purple, naso, and vlamingi tangs...The clarion (whew), flame, and pygmy angels...The mystery and six-line wrasses...The wheeler and diamond gobies...The banner butterflyfish...The 3 clowns...Couple anthias...And last but not least my 12 chromis.
So now I am at a crossroads. Do I try and fix the tank on the go? Do I sell off whats left and shut it down for an extended period of time and re-design the whole system? Yesterday, I was leaning (heavily) to sell everything and be done indefinately. Today, I was looking back at pictures and feel I should try and give it another shot.
If I did give it another shot I still think a system re-design would be in order. I need the tank to be easier to maintain and able to take care of itself (other than feeding) while im gone during the week...Hmmm.
cdness
Premium Member
Oh no!!
Oh no!!
Dave, sorry to hear of the losses
. Sounds like you have had very unlucky events lately. If there is anything I can do to assist please let me know. I would be glad to help out wherever I can.
I actually just got done with a tank move myself, losing some of my corals but it went better this time. I can hook you up with whatever I have in my tank if you want when you are ready.
I'd hate to see the tank torn down and shut down indefinately. Since you have the other two tanks, maybe those could get set up to store everything while you get the large tank back up to the level you want it to be at. I bet that's an idea you have already considered though.
But as I said if you need ANYTHING just let me know.
Oh no!!
Dave, sorry to hear of the losses
. Sounds like you have had very unlucky events lately. If there is anything I can do to assist please let me know. I would be glad to help out wherever I can.I actually just got done with a tank move myself, losing some of my corals but it went better this time. I can hook you up with whatever I have in my tank if you want when you are ready.
I'd hate to see the tank torn down and shut down indefinately. Since you have the other two tanks, maybe those could get set up to store everything while you get the large tank back up to the level you want it to be at. I bet that's an idea you have already considered though.
But as I said if you need ANYTHING just let me know.
jnarowe
New member
Trials and tribulations of a tough hobby. Another idea is to go FOWLR while you do the re-build. Your original tank appeared to be overly complicated and in the long-run, tough to maintain. There are plenty of people on the boards that can help you right that wrong. I have seen more than one dedicated reef-keeper deal with complete re-builds while still keeping their livestock for the most part. The real question is can you devote the time, or do you need to find someone who can do it for you. Then weed out the posers etc. PITA I know.
Possitive spin? Well, you learned a LOT!
Possitive spin? Well, you learned a LOT!
Dave, in my opinion, you're better off training someone to take care of the maintenance rather than relying on automation, it's cheaper and more reliable in the long run.
Dante_JoseCuerv
New member
Trials and tribulations of a tough hobby. Another idea is to go FOWLR while you do the re-build. Your original tank appeared to be overly complicated and in the long-run, tough to maintain. There are plenty of people on the boards that can help you right that wrong. I have seen more than one dedicated reef-keeper deal with complete re-builds while still keeping their livestock for the most part. The real question is can you devote the time, or do you need to find someone who can do it for you. Then weed out the posers etc. PITA I know.
Possitive spin? Well, you learned a LOT!
+1. I support the path of staying with it. There's more than enough people on here that would love to help out with something like this (myself included!!!) and come on, it's an addiction man!!!
In all seriousness though, very sorry to hear about your troubles. Glad to hear that the vlamingii is still alive though (I'm a HUGE sucker for the entire naso genus, but mostly n. vlamingii).
Reefaquariumnut
Premium Member
Lets say I re-build...
Here are the trouble areas I see. Lets tackle these first and others may come up as we dig deeper.
1) The OM 4-way under the tank is a PITA to access and clean out if it clogs up...which it does and will continue to do so even if i keep it prestine in the tank...So I am thinking either the returns need to be moved or the CL needs to be plugged and turned off.
2) I have 10 Tunzes in the tank (4-6305, 4-6205, and 2-6105) and I don't think I ever got the handle for what they should be doing. Should they have all been on one side, all along the back wall, on some sort of pulse, etc...
3) My return lines are kinda "hokey pokey". Lots of splitting and reducing going on. I am wondering if I should just hook up the waavy seas to the back wall and get rid of the front returns. Meaning, should I just have the pipe split once and come up the side of the tank and return through the back of the tank?
4) The sumps under my stand are even more impossible to clean and access than the OM 4-way. I think if i got these from under the stand it could help tremendously. I don't think anything needs to be under the tank, should it?
5) Calcium and Kalk reactors...Do I really need these? Would I be better off with dosing Ca, Alk, and Mg? If its better for a big system like this to have reactors is there a better way to set them up?
6) Do I really need a UV system? If I do keep it I need to re-route it so its easier to maintain and change bulbs when needed.
7) What about Carbon and Phosphate? What kinda of reactor and where do i put it in the flow of water throughout the system? The reactor I have is garbage and I don't think it ever really did anything for my system...
8) What if I wanted to remove the tile in the room? What would you put down instead? Marble? Stained Concrete? Rubber?
9) The tile in the room is a PITA. It flakes off when it gets wet, its uneven everywhere, and looks like crap when dirty. Now if I removed the tile that means I need to remove almost everything in the room...maybe including the tank. Hmmm...Wow. Big Job.
10) The lighting makes it hard to clean the tank and it seems like 6 x 400w MH SE are just overkill. I wonder if 3 bigger reflectors with other supplements to offset the gaps would do better?
Here are the trouble areas I see. Lets tackle these first and others may come up as we dig deeper.
1) The OM 4-way under the tank is a PITA to access and clean out if it clogs up...which it does and will continue to do so even if i keep it prestine in the tank...So I am thinking either the returns need to be moved or the CL needs to be plugged and turned off.
2) I have 10 Tunzes in the tank (4-6305, 4-6205, and 2-6105) and I don't think I ever got the handle for what they should be doing. Should they have all been on one side, all along the back wall, on some sort of pulse, etc...
3) My return lines are kinda "hokey pokey". Lots of splitting and reducing going on. I am wondering if I should just hook up the waavy seas to the back wall and get rid of the front returns. Meaning, should I just have the pipe split once and come up the side of the tank and return through the back of the tank?
4) The sumps under my stand are even more impossible to clean and access than the OM 4-way. I think if i got these from under the stand it could help tremendously. I don't think anything needs to be under the tank, should it?
5) Calcium and Kalk reactors...Do I really need these? Would I be better off with dosing Ca, Alk, and Mg? If its better for a big system like this to have reactors is there a better way to set them up?
6) Do I really need a UV system? If I do keep it I need to re-route it so its easier to maintain and change bulbs when needed.
7) What about Carbon and Phosphate? What kinda of reactor and where do i put it in the flow of water throughout the system? The reactor I have is garbage and I don't think it ever really did anything for my system...
8) What if I wanted to remove the tile in the room? What would you put down instead? Marble? Stained Concrete? Rubber?
9) The tile in the room is a PITA. It flakes off when it gets wet, its uneven everywhere, and looks like crap when dirty. Now if I removed the tile that means I need to remove almost everything in the room...maybe including the tank. Hmmm...Wow. Big Job.
10) The lighting makes it hard to clean the tank and it seems like 6 x 400w MH SE are just overkill. I wonder if 3 bigger reflectors with other supplements to offset the gaps would do better?
IMO:
1. I took the drum out of my 4 way, put educators on the outlets and installed a large pressure rated pump controlled with a VFD, no maintenance.
2. Don't need the Tunze's if your CL's are done right
3. Go with Sea Swirls with educators, run with pressure rated pump, like a Panworld 250
4. Nothing is under my tank, everything I maintain is in the tank room with easy access.
5. Get rid of the CR, use 2 part with Drew dossiers from Bulk Reef Supply, set and forget.
6. Keep the UV, change bulb once a year.
7. Run high grade carbon and GFO in reactors. BRS has everything.
8. You can put down anything you want that is impervious to water, most people just use epoxy paint, tile is fine, so is granite, marble or concrete that is sealed.
9. I'd seriously consider LED's if you want to upgrade, the advantages are very little heat, longevity of the diodes (50,000 hrs) and very little decay of frequency, which I think is the best value compared to MH's. Don't go up to 1000 w MH's, you will not be able to keep LPS if you do.
1. I took the drum out of my 4 way, put educators on the outlets and installed a large pressure rated pump controlled with a VFD, no maintenance.
2. Don't need the Tunze's if your CL's are done right
3. Go with Sea Swirls with educators, run with pressure rated pump, like a Panworld 250
4. Nothing is under my tank, everything I maintain is in the tank room with easy access.
5. Get rid of the CR, use 2 part with Drew dossiers from Bulk Reef Supply, set and forget.
6. Keep the UV, change bulb once a year.
7. Run high grade carbon and GFO in reactors. BRS has everything.
8. You can put down anything you want that is impervious to water, most people just use epoxy paint, tile is fine, so is granite, marble or concrete that is sealed.
9. I'd seriously consider LED's if you want to upgrade, the advantages are very little heat, longevity of the diodes (50,000 hrs) and very little decay of frequency, which I think is the best value compared to MH's. Don't go up to 1000 w MH's, you will not be able to keep LPS if you do.
Dante_JoseCuerv
New member
Well since you have such a large system and BRS has been mentioned why not look at one of their jumbo reactors? Something along the lines of:
http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/store...er-bags/jumbo-brs-gfo-and-carbon-reactor.html
I'm actually looking at one of these for my 220. Pair that with some ROX 0.8 carbon for a winner.
As for the Tunzes, while they are very nice your CL's should be more than enough with proper tuning.
http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/store...er-bags/jumbo-brs-gfo-and-carbon-reactor.html
I'm actually looking at one of these for my 220. Pair that with some ROX 0.8 carbon for a winner.
As for the Tunzes, while they are very nice your CL's should be more than enough with proper tuning.
We need to talk....
1. plug closed loop, pain to clean and waste of electricity. Tunze's produce more than enough flow.
2. We need to learn to use the proflux more efficiently, it can control all the pumps
3. Agreed, we need to either run all the return pipes to the ocean motions, or we need to just put two more ocean motions in the front.
4. The sumps will be hard to move from under the stand, we just don't have the room unless we were to stack them.....
5. We had the reactors working perfectly w/ the proflux, so that just needs to get fixed.
6. Get rid of the UV all it does is kill off good bacteria, algae, and a whole myriad of other organisms that are beneficial
7. Need to get a better carbon reactor, the one right now sucks! Ditch the PO4 reactor
8. As much as it will suck, tear up all the tile in there right now and epoxy the floor, and up the walls to stop ANY water from leaking from out of the tank room
9. Lighting is good, just need to find a better way to hang the lights so that we can move them when accessing the tank.
1. plug closed loop, pain to clean and waste of electricity. Tunze's produce more than enough flow.
2. We need to learn to use the proflux more efficiently, it can control all the pumps
3. Agreed, we need to either run all the return pipes to the ocean motions, or we need to just put two more ocean motions in the front.
4. The sumps will be hard to move from under the stand, we just don't have the room unless we were to stack them.....
5. We had the reactors working perfectly w/ the proflux, so that just needs to get fixed.
6. Get rid of the UV all it does is kill off good bacteria, algae, and a whole myriad of other organisms that are beneficial
7. Need to get a better carbon reactor, the one right now sucks! Ditch the PO4 reactor
8. As much as it will suck, tear up all the tile in there right now and epoxy the floor, and up the walls to stop ANY water from leaking from out of the tank room
9. Lighting is good, just need to find a better way to hang the lights so that we can move them when accessing the tank.
jnarowe
New member
While I admire Ocean Motions and their designs, I would not have one on my system. And I am sure you heard this before. IMO the only moving part in flow show be the actual pump head.
Tunze and other such powerheads are great. Easy to replace, repair, and move based on coral growth etc. 10 seems like overkill though until you have a large coral mass within the system. There are many ways to "hide" them as well, like having the tank longer than the viewing area, using creative rock formations, and in-tank "rock" conduit.
In my next system, my returns will go over the top, down to the bottom, to eductor manifolds. NO HOLES IN THE TANK! One return pump and manifold for each side of the tank, driven by VFD (Variable Frequency Drive) motors on a controller. These will be able to pulse back and forth to mix detritus into the water column, but also relax during the evening to let the fish rest. This is predicated on an out-of-sight bottom pane and the rock structure mounted on carbon fiber legs. My goal would be 100% flow coverage of the tank bottom.
This is the single largest mistake made in large tank installs IMO. I believe all areas of the system should be 100% accessible period. Detritus settles everywhere and the ONLY way to ensure the health of your reef is to be able to control this situation 100%. If you can't reach it, it won't get done. Even though my last tank was 5' x 8', there was nothing under it other than electrical and plumbing. And all plumbing had extra valves and unions so any part could be removed while the system was running.
Yes and no. I have had significant experience with both and their positive and negative effects on a system. So, I would plan a modified "ultra" Balling Method for my next system. Not only would I does Ca, Alk, Mg, but also strontium, iodine, and other needed elements. The things about using coral bones for calcium media, is that it contains much more than just Ca. So, you may need to look at a hybrid supplement system that relies on both reactors and dosing, as your reef grows. The great thing about dosing is that you can always does more.
UV has its place, particularly in emergent situations, QT etc. I would keep a fairly powerful one installed so that water could be routed through it as needed, or at least have one permanently installed on your QT system.
I think carbon is a very important part of aquarium husbandry, for the mere fact that we do not have an ocean to dilute polution. Carefully executed, I find that it does a world of good for my tanks, but the caveat is that it must be the right carbon, thoroughly washed of dust in purified water, and heavily guarded with mechanical filters to keep the fines out of the display tank. I would actually soak my carbon and coral bones in RO/DI water, drain and refill, until the water tested zero for all pullutants (most notably, PO4).
I wouldn't run a system without PO4 media ever, particularly if running a calcium reactor. Mine was set up so that the stream of water exiting the calcium reactor went through PO4 media and multiple socks. This polished the PO4 created during the calcium/CO2 reaction. Again, like all equipment, a LOT of thought must be given to how it is installed.
Deifnitely NOT marble! :lol: So there are several ways to go with this, but I would warn you that concrete does not stand up well to salt water, even when well sealed. Check out how hospitals run vinyl 6" up the wall. The downside being getting cut open by sharp obejects. There are very good garage coatings, not HD crap, but the real stuff, with so many options. Rubber is enticing, but I question how well it would do with UV. Also, check out Tennant Floor Coatings. These guys really know their sheet.
Buck up and get 'er done. You clearly showed the ability to take on this project in the first place, so why is it so hard to take corrective action?
Remember what I did? 3 x 1000W lamps on movers... and don't worry so much about gaps. Fish and other inhabitants like a little shade too now and then!
Reefaquariumnut
Premium Member
Im thinking the first thing i need to decide is if i want to keep the existing tank...i would like to move the overflows to the outside, rid the tank of the closed loop, move the tunzes or water movement to the outside, and have a full 8x4 box to work with. Glass tank built on site would be ideal.
I think once the existing tank is cut out and flooring gone, i could find a way to fit all the sumps together and easily accessible.
I think once the existing tank is cut out and flooring gone, i could find a way to fit all the sumps together and easily accessible.
jnarowe
New member
That's probably what I would do. I guess the main barrier to starting would be the outside temps. It would be hard to set up a temporary structure to house your collection while you did the work. I sure wish you could get some money back on that tank. Here's an idea for you to consider:
While this is a composite tank design, you might be able to adapt it for glass.
This design is based on my current tank room situation, but the key elements are the short viewing pane to obscure the tank bottom and give more of a window-to-the-ocean viewing effect, and the powerheads mounted "externally". So how this would work, is the power heads could be used in "wavebox" mode, or slowed down for direct flow mimicing a closed loop. The top end has a removable overflow comb and acts to create multiple "overflows" into the external boxes.
Then there's the main external overflow that actually drains to the sump system. Return flow goes over the top and down the corners not viewable from the viewing side (hidden by wall). It is an interesting concept IMO. These views are just the general box design, but there are a lot more details in how it would be built, materials, strength etc. Persionally, I would not build it out of glass, but then again, I do live on the Left Coast! :lol:
While this is a composite tank design, you might be able to adapt it for glass.
This design is based on my current tank room situation, but the key elements are the short viewing pane to obscure the tank bottom and give more of a window-to-the-ocean viewing effect, and the powerheads mounted "externally". So how this would work, is the power heads could be used in "wavebox" mode, or slowed down for direct flow mimicing a closed loop. The top end has a removable overflow comb and acts to create multiple "overflows" into the external boxes.
Then there's the main external overflow that actually drains to the sump system. Return flow goes over the top and down the corners not viewable from the viewing side (hidden by wall). It is an interesting concept IMO. These views are just the general box design, but there are a lot more details in how it would be built, materials, strength etc. Persionally, I would not build it out of glass, but then again, I do live on the Left Coast! :lol:
canyousee
New member
Dave I hope you rebuild I really loved your tank,yet you already have the best equipment and had allot of good advice when you put the build together in the first place. The only thing you do not have is the time at home to keep it up so the animals thrive,may be wise to down size?
Reefaquariumnut
Premium Member
I don't think the problem was tank size, but more an ease of maintenance and cleaning that contributed to the downfall as well as some bad luck and stupid mistakes. I most likely will rebuild and probably will start fresh with new tank.
