Novices need LED lighting questions answered.

[Ron Reefman]

First, that fixture is for 12" deep reef tanks and fish only tanks! It has 360 leds and it's only 59 watts! That's less than 0.2 watts/led. Over a 20" deep tank it will keep zoas and softies near the bottom and lps from 12" or less deep in the tank. Forget about sps! You need more wattage, not more leds to penetrate 20" deep.

For $200 you'd be WAY better off with two MarsAqua fixtures that drive 3 watt leds at 1.9 watts/led. Even better, for a bit more would be a 32" ViparSpectra that drives 3 watt leds at 2.2 watt/led.

 

[wertoiuy]

Alright, I took a look at those two, and they both look much better. I have a discount at a LFS, so do you have any recommendations from a standard vendor rather than Amazon?

Maybe I don't understand the watts/LED argument. Say I have two equally efficient lights, each drawing 100W, one with 100 LEDs and one with 36. Why would the one with 100 LEDs perform differently than the one with 36? They supply the same watts of light, and therefore the same PAR.

 

[Ron Reefman]

Alright, I took a look at those two, and they both look much better. I have a discount at a LFS, so do you have any recommendations from a standard vendor rather than Amazon?

Tell me what brands and the cost of the fixture your LFS carries and I'll try to help. But many/most LFS don't carry black box Chinese fixtures because they are sold do cheap on Amazon or Ebay that there is no margin for the LFS. The name brands the LFS will carry are either like the Fulval (Current Orbit or Marineland), very weak. Or considerably more expensive. Which is OK if cost isn't an objection. Brands like AI, EcoTech, Maxspect and more.

Maybe I don't understand the watts/LED argument. Say I have two equally efficient lights, each drawing 100W, one with 100 LEDs and one with 36. Why would the one with 100 LEDs perform differently than the one with 36? They supply the same watts of light, and therefore the same PAR.

You are right, you don't understand so lets try to explain it. Taking your example fixtures:

The 100w fixture with 36 leds will be much brighter and the light will penetrate much deeper into the water and even at the surface, create much more PAR. Each led is running at almost 3 watts (think 100w light bulbs).

The 100w fixture with 100 leds is running at 1 watt per led. So not nearly as bright, as powerful or as much PAR (think 10 watt nightlight bulbs). The brighter the individual bulb, the further the light will penetrate (or travel).

Think of it this way, you want to light up the driveway in front of your garage all the way out to the street with lights mounted on the garage. You get to use 1000 watts. Would you rather have ten 100 watt bulbs, or one hundred 10 watt bulbs? The light will be similar at 5 feet from the garage (maybe), but out at 20 feet or 100 feet the ten 100 watt bulbs will be far more effective than the 10 watt bulbs. Right? Does that help?

The 0.2 or even 0.5 watt leds just don't penetrate the water the same as a 3 watt led. And adding more weak 0.2 or 0.5 watt leds isn't going to make the light penetrate any deeper (they are parallel, not cumulative). The 0.5 watt led fixture is OK for a 12" deep tank. Maybe even for an 18" deep tank with easy coral. But a 3 watt led fixture will have way more PAR, 2 to 4 times as much PAR (200 vs 50) at 18" deep with 1/10th as many leds.

If that still doesn't make sense to you, say so and I'll try again. It took me a while to understand as well as I do and there is still more I could learn!

 

[wertoiuy]

The garage door light explanation really helped, thanks!

Alright, let me try explaining it to see if I understand. Its the medium (air or water) which causes this effect, right? I think it wouldn't matter in a vacuum. The medium deflects photons based on how energetic they are. Its sort of like trying to break down a brick wall. An equivalent amount of kinetic energy in either thousands of baseballs or on speeding 18 wheeler; the 18 wheeler is going to be much more effective.

 

[Ron Reefman]

You've got the idea. Light travels through air MUCH better than it travels through water, and I believe salt water is even worse than fresh water. As for traveling through a vacuum, I'm not 100% sure. Star light is traveling through a near vacuum and it still fades with distance. But then space isn't a perfect vacuum and the distances are huge by comparison.

And certain spectrum of light travel better through salt water than others. Here is a chart that paints a pretty clear picture.




And here is a chart provided by Current Orbit which is very similar to the Fluval fixture you asked about. They use 0.3 to 0.5 watt leds like Fluval does.

Notice that at about halfway down in a 24" deep tank they get a PAR of 40 or less. Most corals in this hobby need more PAR than that. IMHO even zoas, softies and mushrooms need a PAR of 50 or higher just to stay healthy, let alone grow and propagate. My led fixture is 50" long and covers a 6' long tank. It uses just 88 leds, some are 3 watt and some are 5 watt. I run mine at 90% on 3w blue channels, 40% on 5w white and 3w violet and 10% on the few 3w green and red. With those settings I get a PAR of 190 at 12" deep in my tank. At 100% on all 6 channels (that's what Current Orbit used in their test) I get a PAR of 230. That's almost 6 times what the Current Orbit gets.

 

[timnem70]

Looking at a LED light for a 75 gallon. Probably not going to have a massive amount of SPS, much more LPS and softies. I don't like the effect of the pendant/puck lights where there is this shimmering in the water; its really distracting. What are some good LED lights that are arranged like a strip, such as this:

Hoping for a price range around $200.

Junk. Had one

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[Ron Reefman]

Junk. Had one

I wouldn't call it junk, it depends on what you want to use it for. If you have a FOWLR or a shallow tank (under 18", preferably about 12") with zoas and mushrooms it can be an OK light.

 

[allykahn]

I have been out of the hobby for a few years and getting the urge to jump back in, so I figured I would start here. I ran a 180g (72x24x24) FOWLR and some corals for over ten years. My lighting was (5) T5 bulbs and 2 VHO actinic bulbs powered by Ice Cap ballasts. I'm not sure if I should stick with the T5s and VHO (if they still make them), go with LEDs or a combo of both. My plan is to have some colorful zoas, LPS and mushrooms.

I really appreciate the information that you are providing.

 

[Pdisner]

Hey I I just saw your post and wanted to let you know that BulkReefSupply.com has the Seneye on sale for 140. It's the one that goes with your smartphone


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[Ron Reefman]

I have been out of the hobby for a few years and getting the urge to jump back in, so I figured I would start here. I ran a 180g (72x24x24) FOWLR and some corals for over ten years. My lighting was (5) T5 bulbs and 2 VHO actinic bulbs powered by Ice Cap ballasts. I'm not sure if I should stick with the T5s and VHO (if they still make them), go with LEDs or a combo of both. My plan is to have some colorful zoas, LPS and mushrooms.

I really appreciate the information that you are providing.

When it comes to a tank with zoas, mushrooms and lps, it's hard to pick a fixture that won't work.

T5's are fine and inexpensive. Bulb replacement every 12 months is the biggest drawback. And in order to change the color in the tank you need to buy different bulbs which can get a bit pricey and wasteful. However they do produce great light for any coral.

My current DT is much like you are planing and I use all leds. The light is just as good for soft corals as a t5 and there are no bulbs to replace. If you want to pay extra, there are a variety of extra levels of control you can get. They range from simple built in timers all the way to sunrise/sunset control and multiple channels of color control. That doesn't make the actual light they produce any better, but it allows you to fine tune the tank to look the way you want it to look.

If you have any specific questions, feel free to ask and I'll try to help.

 

[allykahn]

Thanks Ron,

I think I would like to try the leds with the controls you mentioned. Any recommendations?

Also, I know some manufacturers have 4' or 5' fixtures. I'm wondering if I would need to use (2) 3ft fixtures for full coverage or a 4 or 5ft fixture, which leaves unlit areas.

 

[Ron Reefman]

Thanks Ron,

I think I would like to try the leds with the controls you mentioned. Any recommendations?

Also, I know some manufacturers have 4' or 5' fixtures. I'm wondering if I would need to use (2) 3ft fixtures for full coverage or a 4 or 5ft fixture, which leaves unlit areas.

Of all the fixtures that have sunrise/sunset control AND 6 channel color control, IMHO the best value is Reef Breeders Photon V2 or EverGrow (the Chinese version of the Photon). It looks good and it's well made. The programming is a bit old school and the remote should be kept plugged into a USB port to keep it charged whenever you need it.

With led fixtures for your 6' tank, I'd do 2 of the Photon V2 that are 32" each. If you could find a 5' or 6' fixture, that would work, but a 4' will leave very dim ends in the tank.

 

[lsouth913]

Following this thread.. ferrying back in to reefing after being gone about 6 years

 

[lsouth913]

I'm really wondering on the wattage going with led.. do you need the same wattage as say mh 3-4w a gallon? Or do you have to check par with your setup and adjust power on the led?

 

[Ron Reefman]

I'm really wondering on the wattage going with led.. do you need the same wattage as say mh 3-4w a gallon? Or do you have to check par with your setup and adjust power on the led?

Wattage and lighting for an aquarium is really an out of date idea (and it was never a really good system even back in the days before led lighting). I think any currently available led aquarium fixture using 3 watt or 5 watt leds is going to be strong enough that you probably aren't going to run it at full power anyway. On average I'd say that even a cheap Chinese black box 16" 165 watt fixture (55 leds rated at 3 watts each but only driven at 2.2 watts) used to cover roughly a 30"x24" footprint in a 24" deep tank will be run between 50% and 80% of it's total power output (with the blue channel at 50% to 100% higher level than the white channel). I run mine with blues at 90% and whites at 40% or less.

There are fixtures like the Current Orbit that use 0.3 to 0.5 watt leds and try to make up the lack of watts/led by using a lot more leds per fixture. That does work as long as the water depth is shallow enough, about 16" max on average (a bit less (12") for sps and a bit more (20") for zoas and softies). The issue is theat more leds can not make up for the lack of depth penetration of the light. A Current Orbit fixture at 100% power has a PAR of 50 or less at 24" deep (according to their own advertising). A165 watt black box will have a PAR of about 100 to 150 at the same depth.

The best way to know you have the proper amount of light is with a PAR meter. They are becoming more common in the hobby and even better accuracy than when the Apogee meter hit the hobby about 8 or 9 years ago. The cost of a good meter is now about half of what an Apogee meter cost back then. And some people even rent them out. I loan mine out to local club members all the time in exchange for a coral frag or two.

The only other way to know, is to do slow acclimatization or use the 'canary in a coalmine' approach. Get a small frag of a red cap monti or any other inexpensive plating coral, and set it in your tank as high or higher than all the other corals. Start your acclimatization at a low number and raise it every week. You can raise it a bit faster early on, but get much more careful as you get up to higher power levels. When you raise the light intensity too high, the red cap will start to bleach before any other corals. At that point, dial the power back a bit (5% to 10%) and you should be good to go.

 

[Ron Reefman]

I'm really wondering on the wattage going with led.. do you need the same wattage as say mh 3-4w a gallon? Or do you have to check par with your setup and adjust power on the led?

IMHO wattage and lighting for an aquarium is really an out of date idea (and it was never a really good system even back in the days before led lighting). I think any currently available led aquarium fixture using 3 watt or 5 watt leds is going to be strong enough that you probably aren't going to run it at full power anyway. On average I'd say that even a cheap Chinese black box 16" 165 watt fixture (55 leds rated at 3 watts each but only driven at 2.2 watts) used to cover roughly a 30"x24" footprint in a 24" deep tank will be run between 50% and 80% of it's total power output (with the blue channel at 50% to 100% higher level than the white channel). I run mine with blues at 90% and whites at 40% or less.

There are fixtures like the Current Orbit that use 0.3 to 0.5 watt leds and try to make up the lack of watts/led by using a lot more leds per fixture. That does work as long as the water depth is shallow enough, about 16" max on average (a bit less (12") for sps and a bit more (20") for zoas and softies). The issue is theat more leds can not make up for the lack of depth penetration of the light. A Current Orbit fixture at 100% power has a PAR of 50 or less at 24" deep (according to their own advertising). A165 watt black box will have a PAR of about 100 to 150 at the same depth.

The best way to know you have the proper amount of light is with a PAR meter. They are becoming more common in the hobby and even better accuracy than when the Apogee meter hit the hobby about 8 or 9 years ago. The cost of a good meter is now about half of what an Apogee meter cost back then. And some people even rent them out. I loan mine out to local club members all the time in exchange for a coral frag or two.

The only other way to know, is to do slow acclimatization or use the 'canary in a coalmine' approach. Get a small frag of a red cap monti or any other inexpensive plating coral, and set it in your tank as high or higher than all the other corals. Start your acclimatization at a low number and raise it every week. You can raise it a bit faster early on, but get much more careful as you get up to higher power levels. When you raise the light intensity too high, the red cap will start to bleach before any other corals. At that point, dial the power back a bit (5% to 10%) and you should be good to go.

 

[Barbnot1]

Metal halide question

Metal halide question

Ok I've been out of the hobby almost 10 yrs. I am ready to get my feet wet! This hobby has a LITTLE expense to it so right now I'm getting equipment and researching as much as possible. I just bought a used 90 gallon reef ready tank with a 40 gallon sump, a skimmer, a return pump those i may upgrade we will see. On the lights it came with two 175 watt metal halides they are on a PFO ballast i know they are out of business. If I try to keep these lights it will only cost me $30 to get them running i have found the one additional lamp cord i needed for them and tested them. All I see is mainly people talking about leds. I want to have lps and softies and fish. i am wondering if these would be ok if i would need go buy supplements like t5s. Before I had stronger lights 2-250 or 2-500w metal halides and 3 vhos i don't remember for sure on the mhs i did have some sp s had to let everything adjust slowly to my lights. So I'm not sure if I should try these for a while by themselves because if i need to buy more think I'll just get two or three evergrow 165w leds from amazon. They are wif and programmable 3 was $366. Opinions? Suggestions? All comments are welcome and will be researched.

 

[pkstylez]

Currently looking at making a conversion for 8 T5 48" bulbs to a 48" LED over my Reef tank so i can control the colors and appearance the tank better. Having trouble finding the correct and or wish list that i want.
I was told to only use LED that have atleast 3/4 " bulbs otherwise your just growing Algae. Anyone have any experience with this?

 

[pkstylez]

Outstanding info!!!

 

[Ron Reefman]

Currently looking at making a conversion for 8 T5 48" bulbs to a 48" LED over my Reef tank so i can control the colors and appearance the tank better. Having trouble finding the correct and or wish list that i want.
I was told to only use LED that have atleast 3/4 " bulbs otherwise your just growing Algae. Anyone have any experience with this?

3/4" leds...???

I have no idea why the size of the led matters? It's about the light it puts out and if it has enough PAR and enough blue spectrum. Algae doesn't care what size the bulbs are. If you have tiny leds putting out a good amount of PAR in the blue spectrum it won't grow alga at all (well, very, very little).

The big answer is, 95% of aquarium led fixtures will work. There are a few like Current Orbit and Marineland that use 0.3watt to 0.5 watt leds which are only good for shallow tanks (under 18" max and better at 12" than 18"). The inexpensive Chinese Black Boxes use 3.0 watt leds and drive them at 2.2 watts so they run cooler and last longer. These will grow coral just fine. As good as any high priced fixture IMHO.

If you want to buy a Mercedes or Cadillac version of an led fixture, be my guest, but the Kia and Hyundai versions of led fixtures put out the same kind of light as the expensive ones.