Novices need LED lighting questions answered.

[Ron Reefman]

I'm new to LED, so I need to ask:

How much heat are these LED lamps giving off? Do they run cooler than MH? I have used MH before and I had excessive heat issues. I'm interested in setting up a 24" deep tank and considering a few LED pendant lamps.

It depends on the fixture. Most led fixtures, even the Chinese Black Boxes I've dealt with, run a bit warm, but that's probably cooler than most t5 fixtures and way cooler than any MH.

Then there are the better led fixtures, like the Reef Breeders Photon V2 that run cool enough that at anything less than about 80% total power, the thermally controlled fan doesn't even turn on. About 75% of the time it's running (during the time it ramps up and then ramps back down) it runs so cool that it's barely a couple of degrees above the room temperature. Some other leds run this cool as well.

But there is the other extreme. I have two 21LEDUSA reef bar led strips that run so hot they're almost too hot to pick up with my bare hands. I've also had a very high end and well thought of led fixture that ran quite hot as well. I haven't used any of their newer releases and it would be my hope that they have improved their design and run cooler now. But I'd be going to a store and asking to see one in use and feel it for myself before I'd buy that brand again.

If you are looking at pendant leds, I assume you are looking at Kessils? They are commonly found in use at may LFS or coral shops. They offer a lot of shimmer (important to some users) and the run a strong blue which coral sellers like as it makes the corals look more colorful. But if they are running a lot of blue and very little or no white in the mix, be aware that the fixture is running at about 50% total power and it should be very cool to the touch. I have very little experience with them as I've found them to be slightly down on PAR when I've tested them with my PAR meter for fellow reefers in our local club.

 

[Ron Reefman]

I was hoping to get away with a single kessil ap700 given the reviews and videos I've seen. I do have a corner overflow system as well so that eats up a few inches of the depth.

My bad, I was thinking Kessil pendants when I said you might want 3 of them, not the ap700.

You have a 45" corner to corner distance across the front on what you want to be an sps dominated tank and you want to cover all that with one ap700. It probably can work for you, but I think you'll end up with dim front corners unless you mount it fairly high off the water. Kessil says that the ap700 can cover 48" of width with the fixture 18" off the water. But that will make for lower PAR levels the further out toward the corners you get, which isn't good for an sps tank. But then how many sps corals would be out at the far corners of the tank? Just be aware and keep slightly less light loving corals out there.

It's just an idea, but I'd still recommend 2 smaller fixtures running from the corner at the back of the tank out toward the front of the tank (assuming they fit), especially for an sps tank. You'll get better coverage in the front corners and more overall PAR for sps corals. One other advantage is that if one should fail for some reason, you still have one functioning fixture to keep the tank lit (although dimmer) vs one big fixture that if it should fail, you have no light at all (unless you have some kind of backup sitting on a shelf... which is never a bad idea).

 

[Pedal Damnit]

If you are looking at pendant leds, I assume you are looking at Kessils? .

Thanks for the info. and yea, it seems like Kessil is the only choice for pendants? I don't see much else out there in that style. It would be just an aesthetic choice to go with 2-3 hanging pendants. I guess we need to be more open minded to the long slimline rectangular units.

 

[Special K85]

I am new to hobby and looking at slowly getting in to corals. I have been looking at 2 hydra 26 or kessil a360. i have a 75 gal tank with just a few zoas in there now. I want to be able to grow harder corals down the road and not have to replace my lights. i like that the hydra has built in wifi and I dont need to buy a programmer like i do for the kessil. Thanks. been lurking for a while soaking up info.

 

[Ron Reefman]

I am new to hobby and looking at slowly getting in to corals. I have been looking at 2 hydra 26 or kessil a360. i have a 75 gal tank with just a few zoas in there now. I want to be able to grow harder corals down the road and not have to replace my lights. i like that the hydra has built in wifi and I dont need to buy a programmer like i do for the kessil. Thanks. been lurking for a while soaking up info.

Sorry, I have zero experience with either of these lights so I can't be much help.

 

[Special K85]

Thanks Rob seems like no one has any experience with these I'm trying to stay around 600$ or so any suggestions since you seem like the light guru

 

[Ron Reefman]

OK. Oh, BTW, I assume it's a typo. The name is Ron not Rob (I know, the 'n' and the 'b' are next to each other on the keyboard).

For starters I'll assume you 75g tank is 4' long and roughly 20" deep as that seems fairly standard.

Costs for what you are looking at is going to be in the $650 to $700 range either way.

The Hydra has a footprint of 18"x18" recommended and maxed out at 2'x2', I can't find any footprint info on the Kessil. My best guess is they may cover roughly the same area.

The Hydra uses very well known and quality leds, Kessil uses an led chip they claim to make (I'd have serious doubts). Personally, I don't like chips as they tend to be all or nothing in terms of failure. And Kessil A360's seem to have quite a few bad reviews for short life expectancy (just beyond warranty).

Personally, I like the looks of the Kessil pendant way better than the Hydra box that looks more like any Chinese Black Box fixture. But I like everything else about the Hydra better than the Kessil.

If I HAD to pick between the two, I'd take the Hydra. And if you have a canopy that you can hide them in, that's even better.

HOWEVER, for $500 or the same $650 you were looking at spending, you could pick a Reef Breeders Photon V2+ in either a 32" or 48" fixture. IMHO the 32" fixture will cover your 48" tank end to end and save you $150. But if the extra $150 is worth it to you, the 48" fixture will offer you the option to waste light out the ends of the tank! LOL! I'm always surprised by how many reefers with 48" tanks get 48" led fixtures. Light spreads as it goes into the tank. Covering the extra 8" at either end of the tank is easy to do with the 32" fixture at the right height.

The Photon V2+ uses the same quality brand leds as the Hydra and instead of 52 leds total (2 Hydra 26 fixtures) you get 72 leds with the 32" and 88 leds with the 48". It already sounds like a no brainer to me. Save money and get more high quality leds!

The Photon V2+ is only 1" thick (not at all Chinese black box looking) and is aluminum. It comes with a hanging kit AND legs (I use the legs). It has 6 channels of color control and full sunrise/sunset ability. And I'm going to get the V2+ upgrade for my 2 year old fixtures that still run and look like new. It makes the sunrise/sunset ramp smoother than the once per hour that my older units do now. Although I really don't mind the once per hour at the top of the hour light change as I think of it as being like an old grandfather clock that chimes the top of the hour. LOL!

Reef Breeders also has a sponsor forum here at Reef Central so they are super easy to deal with. Logan, the owner, is super helpful.

Here is what mine look like. The big tank is the 50" Photon V2 over a 60" tank and the small one is the 16" fixture over a 24" cube.

 

[Special K85]

Thanks Ron makes sense to go the v2 and I like saving money

 

[starypotter]

Hi I'm currently gathering all of the equipment that I need for my first tank and I've been doing my research but the lights are really tripping me up.

I have a standard 29 gallon tank, and a 10 gallon that I'm planning to connect to it as a sort of modified fuge/sump. The protein skimmer I plan on getting is too tall for the 10 gallon so since it needs to go in the DT anyway, I'm planning to just have the water pumped through the fuge with some chaeto and stick the heater down there as well. I might add more filtration to it but I'm not sure yet. I also have a 10 gallon for a quarantine for fish, and since my LFS is having a $1/gallon sale I'll probably pick up another 10 as a quarantine for coral.

I want to have a mixed reef tank with options for all different corals. I'm trying to keep a budget to around $200. If a bit over would get me a far superior light that's going to make a significant difference I'd consider it, but I would really prefer to keep costs down.

For the 10gal fish quarantine I have a standard hood light.
For the 10gal fuge for algae and maybe some inverts I have this I admittedly bought this at 4am in a rush and did not look at the details too close and Amazon would charge $8 to return it so looks like I'm keeping it.
I just need something for the small coral tank, and the 29gal DT.

I'm looking at the AquaMaxx Prism - AquaMaxx NemoLight - Current USA Orbit Marine - and the AquaIllumination Prime HD

I was thinking that maybe if I get one of the ones that stretches across the top of a tank I could just upgrade the length and DIY something so I could have the two tanks that need that light next to each other. I'm open to suggestions of other lights, these were just some ones that were in my budget and seemed like they'd be okay. Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

 

[Ron Reefman]

First, saying you have a 'standard 29g tank' really isn't very helpful. These days there are very few 'standard' sizes. I assume you mean it's roughly 30" long and 18" deep?

Of all the fixtures you listed, the only one that produces enough PAR to really do a mixed reef in an 18" deep tank is the AI. All the others use 0.5 watt leds which are OK for fish only tanks or reef tanks that are 12" deep. They can work over an 18" deep tank, but don't try any light loving corals like sps. There just isn't enough PAR (Photosynthetic Active Radiation).

The AI has a better PAR level. However, one fixture will only make an 18"x18" footprint and your tank is 30" wide, so you'll need two of them. So now you are way over budget.

Consider two 16" Mars Aqua fixtures at just under $100 each. These don't have all the bells & whistles that the other fixtures you asked about have, but they do make more than enough PAR for even a 24" deep tank using 3 watt leds driven at 1.9 watts so they last longer and run cooler.

You can look at other Chinese Black Box fixtures that will look similar to the Mars Aqua like the Viparspectra, Euphotica, Ocean Revive and a few others. You may find ones that are 24" or even 30" long and they may serve you even better, but they may also be a bit over your budget limit. BTW, all the other Black Box fixtures use 3 watt leds and drive them at 2.2 watts so they make even better PAR than the Mars Aqua.

Welcome to the addiction and good luck.

 

[starypotter]

Thank you for your help Ron! I went with the Viparspectra 165 watt and am still working on finding a light for my coral QT.

 

[Ron Reefman]

Why quarantine coral? The things that come on corals can be removed by using various brands of dip. Fish need to be quarantined, but they don't need any 'special' light.

 

[Redleg13b]

Ron, the reason to QT coral is that none of the coral dips are able to kill the tormonts of Ich or Velvet. The accepted standard is to QT corals for 76 days, as the life cycle of these diseases runs for about 72 days.
Keep up the great work you are doing with this lighting thread you advice is greatly appreciated.

 

[Ron Reefman]

Redleg13b, I probably know close to 50 reefers in my local club and not one of them quarantine coral. In 15 years of keeping multiple reef tanks with corals, I never once quarantined a coral, even ones I collected wild in the Florida Keys and the Gulf of Mexico.

The only case of a fish with a parasite was one with Ich that a friends fish had and I had a spare tank so I treated it.

If you feel the need to quarantine coral, be my guest, it's unlikely to do any harm. But IMHO, it's also unlikely to be necessary 99.9% of the time.

 

[cjohn214]

We used kessil ap700 they worked great

 

[jeremylop67]

Hello everyone, I'm pretty new to the hobby but over the past year I have upgraded pretty fast now I have a 200gal tank that I want to make a reef tank what do you suggest would be a good light to grow and maintain corals that won't run me too much money please let me know thanks


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[Ron Reefman]

Let me start with a simple statement, over a 200g tank, any led fixture (or enough led fixtures) that are 3 watts or more will grow healthy coral. Even the underpowered 0.5 watt Current Orbit fixture works over shallow tanks (16" or less).

From there it's more up to what you want than about whether the fixture will grow coral or not. Assuming a 5' or 6' long tank, 3 or 4 Mars Aqua fixtures (Chinese black boxes) would be more than enough to do the job well and would only cost $300 to $400. You get a mix of leds, 2 channels (mostly white and mostly blue) and built-in dimmers. At the opposite end of the spectrum would be 2 Pacific Sun hybrid led/t5 fixtures with all the bells and whistles at $2000+. And there is a whole world of variation in between.

How much better would a Pacific Sun or Eco Tech Radion grow coral than a Mars Aqua? IMHO, very, very little. But how much more control would you as the user have over the light? A lot! And how much better made would the high end fixture be? Again IMHO, it would be better made, and probably some better materials used, but how much that extra quality worth to you? Especially in a fixture you will probably upgrade in 5 years. I can tell you that your coral really doesn't care. And in 5 years your fixture will seem old and there may be some new features you might be interested in having. And in 10 years I can almost guarantee that you won't still be using whatever led fixture you buy now. I've been using leds for about 8 years now and I've had 2 long term fixtures, 5yrs and 2+yrs (and still using) over my main tanks and a variety of other fixtures (6 different brands over 3 other tanks). If you offered me the led fixture I bought in 2010 for free if I'd use them to replace any of the fixtures I use now, I wouldn't even consider it. Even though I paid $800 total for two of the fixture 8 years ago! Fixtures have improved that much. However, the improvements have slowed down as years go by and now we are almost down to feature improvements or marketing gimmicks that really mean very little to the coral or to the user.

So back to the questions you need to ask yourself:(these are in no particular order)
1) Budget - $300 absolute minimum to over $2500
2) Color Control - 2 channels or more, most midrange cost & higher end fixtures have 6
3) Intensity Control - 2 basic dimmers and no timers, 2 built-in digital dimmers and 2 timers, sunrise/sunset control over all 6 channels, ability to connect by wifi to a remote system and model the light from a real reef.
4) Looks - Basic black box, slimmer more modern looking case, complete disregard because nobody will see them in a canopy or built into the ceiling.
5) Materials Quality - Steel case vs plastic vs aluminum. Temperature control by fans only, a heatsink that is just a sheet of aluminum plus fans or a real finned aluminum heat sink and fans.
6) LEDs - Cheap bridgelux & epistar, more expensive Cree, Semi, OSRAM and others, or even led chips with many leds built into a tiny board.
7) Customer Service - Virtually none from ebay cheap end to retailers who have websites, phone numbers and even sponsor forums at websites like this.

OK, and here is what I wanted and what I bought: I want the best value. In other words good quality (not crazy high end) and good control so I can play with the color and timing. So I use and would recommend Reef Breeders Photon V2+ fixtures. You would want two 32" fixtures for a 6' tank and the total cost would be about $1000 or if it's a 5' tank, a single 50" fixture for $675 (this is what I had over my 5' tank).

If you don't care about having all the control and/or you budget is smaller, let me know and we can talk about all the fixtures between the Mars Aqua and the Reef Breeders Photon V2+. (try post #231 in this thread for some useful information).

 

[losthawk1969]

all these fancy high dollar led lights they sell people buy them, me since 2004 been using 50w led chips half white have royal blue been running then on 32v 1100ma power supply made for hp printers and even run the fan on the heat sink, all still good. I used before that MH and t5s. it just started as an experiment after I ask the guy how bright they got compared to MH, he said just bright, yup it was china on ebay just never seen them before tried it out on a 30g nano everything I put in that tank grew like weeds all I do is feed and keep up on water, tank still up and going since. I moved coral in and out to trade off they out grew this tank its small. now I have more time at home I'm going to setup a bigger tank just got a 120 maybe I will see on going to 100w leds see what that does.

 

[wertoiuy]

I am looking for suggestions on the best lights for my situation. I am looking to light a standard 75 gallon which would have mainly LPS/Softies. Here are my answers to the criteria Ron posted:

1. Budget - Preferably around 200-250.
2. Color Control - For control in general, just something that I can adjust the percentage of white and blue intensity. I don't really care about the other colors, and while timers would be nice I don't want to pay a premium for them.
3. Intensity Control -^
4. Looks - They will be in a hood, so I don't care.
5. Materials Quality - Similar to timers, the nicest I can get without paying far more.
6. LEDs - ^
7. Customer Service - Again, not necessary, but it would be nice.

Looking at this myself, it looks like the MarsAqua style Chinese black-boxes would be best. However, there are two main questions I have before I decide on them.

How much shimmer do they produce? I would like to AVOID the shimmer as much as possible. I know it is mainly dependent on the surface motion; I would want to keep that to a minimum anyways. I work at a LFS. We have Kessil pucks on our coral tank, and Fluval Aquaskys on some of our freshwater tanks. There is not much difference in surface motion, and the Kessils make that tank distracting for me to look at, while the freshwater have almost no shimmer. So I know that it can vary, likely because of point source vs. strip.

Like I said, I work at a LFS. I can get stuff at wholesale rather than retail prices. I figured I could get a slightly nicer light at wholesale from our distributor than the MarsAqua through Amazon. For the same price, I could have higher quality and a physical company with a reputation. What are some lights I should be looking for? Everything I have found so far is crummy .5 watt led strips, like the FluvalSea, or massively overpriced, like the Kessil.

 

[Utkash]

I almost found all the answers I was looking for.

Thank you, guys