Open letter to the LED industry

[galleon]

It's quite simple, a statement of purported fact was claimed: put corals under full spectrum/6500k light, they will be brown or turn brown and lose pigment.

This turns out to be falsifiable. I showed you a photo of the same branches on a coral when browned out, then after a month under just such a lamp: it became significantly more colorful. It may not be the most colorful specimen, but it directly disproves the statement made. The end.

 

[Vannpytt]

No, I'm sorry, your picture actually proves the theory, not disprove.

It will brown out and loose pigments under a lot of 550nm+ spectrum. I suggest you read through the thread, and various points made.

 

[sirreal63]

No, I'm sorry, your picture actually proves the theory, not disprove.

It will brown out and loose pigments under a lot of 550nm+ spectrum. I suggest you read through the thread, and various points made.

So those of us who managed deeply colored corals with 10k bulbs were actually wrong because some graph says we are wrong? The 6500 Iwasaki was the bulb of choice for many years, go back to and look at the TOTM's from the beginning and tell me those people only had brown corals. :blown:

Here is a spectral plot of a 10K Ushio and a 20k Radium. Notice the 10K especially.

Here are the results, with a crappy 5mp camera too. 10K XDE's and a single VHO SuperActintic.

It is easy to say things are so based on wrong data, it is called GiGo.

 

[Bobbofin]

I have a Innovative Marine Nuvo 16 nano tank. I currently have a cheap two bulb T5 fixture with no fan in it and ATI blue+ and coral+ bulbs installed. I like the white/blue color, plenty bright but the fixture heats the tank. I was considering the new AI Hydra fixture. I'll probably only be able to run it at 30% because the display is only 24"w x9"d x13h".
I do like that it only has 4 white LEDs plus blue, deep blue, red, green, violet and UV. Does this get closer to full spectrum?

 

[Pacific Sun RD]

Wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong.

Because this: "Of course - but that what Im trying to say is, that we cant use continuus warm lighting(which guarantee us proper color renderition) because corals will loose their pigments - will go brown..."

Is a falsifiable hypothesis. And it has been falsified.

Here you go, An extremely shallow water wild coral, browned out and placed under the most well known 6500k full spectrum light. Iwasaki. 400 watts. Pictured are the same two branches.

Of course, you can say that I'm wrong and its falisfiable hypothesis - because you SAID that. I will not discus with that.
That photos posted by you are nice - but its brown coral on first photo and brown coral on second photo - with little blueish tips.
I can agree - that they arent brown - but colorfull cream. This is not proof that the warm light corals are able to build all the colored pigments.
Finally, I would just remind you that the spectrum of light built by LED lamps is quite different from the spectrum of metal halide lamps.
6500K LED has a completely different spectrum than Iwasaki 6500K.
If you think I'm wrong - please put the coral under the light of the LEDs 6500K - and we will talk for a few months, then I'll ask you about the publication of photos of coral stained by white LEDs.
Forgot yet one thing - the spectrum emitted by the LED white (and this topic concerns LIGHT LED) more like a graph spectral sun - than a comparable filament of your chart Iwasaki 6500K - which contains quite a lot of light blue - and despite the fact that the resultant temperature is 6500 K CCT has - it looks completely different than the graph LED or sun.. (I've posted it in this thread)

I was convinced that the thread is relevant LED LIGHTING - but I see now that we argue between LED and metal halide.
Therefore I do not have arguments.

I introduced my humble opinion, supported by my own experiences - both those in the laboratory as well as those gained from the measurement of light in Indonesia and Thailand.
Also, during the last 12 years the propagation of corals in an artificial environment.
My goal is not to convince anyone and insisting that I am right.
Perhaps you are right and I am wrong - that's why I will not pollute this thread.
Thank you for the discussion.

 

[sirreal63]

Przemek, I appreciate your participation in this thread. My respect for you has only gone up by your being brave enough to express your opinions. My hope is this thread will not evolve into a "I'm right, and you are wrong" thread. The more varied opinions and ideas expressed here has the opportunity to further understanding.

Personally, I feel people place far too much emphasis on light and not enough on nutrition. It is a fact that people have managed to grow astounding corals under every lighting we have out there. I know of people who kept SPS under 40 watt shop lights, under outdoor fluorescent flood lights, most MH lamps on the market, VHO, PC's, LED's etc etc. To my little pea brain that indicates that it isn't so much the light source as the total environment. I see people starving corals daily on this forum. Corals control their symbionts based on available food, because it is a food source. When it is the only food source in an aquarium they will develop more, if they can. If the zooxanthellae are also starved we get a lot of pale corals, on the brink of starvation. Add a powerful light source and the problem is exacerbated. We then blame the light, incorrectly.

It will be virtually impossible to create the correct LED when so many aquarists are starving their tanks.

 

[penfold2]

Personally, I feel people place far too much emphasis on light and not enough on nutrition. It is a fact that people have managed to grow astounding corals under every lighting we have out there. I know of people who kept SPS under 40 watt shop lights, under outdoor fluorescent flood lights, most MH lamps on the market, VHO, PC's, LED's etc etc. To my little pea brain that indicates that it isn't so much the light source as the total environment.

I agree with this completely. Coral can grow under all kinds of different light sources. Some may be more efficient than others, some may yield better coloration in a given person's eyes, but nearly any reasonable light source of sufficient intensity will grow coral. It sounds like PS RD has a novel approach towards maximizing visible fluorescence with leds, and I look forward to seeing how it pans out. I think much of the argument here comes from the suggestion that led fixtures with whites diodes, and other low kelvin light sources, can't grow coral, or only produce brown coral. Maximizing visible fluorescence is a worthy goal, but saying that any other approach will only result in brown or dead coral is obviously false. I don't think this was PS RD's intent, but I do think we need to avoid promoting such black and white ideas.

 

[Pacific Sun RD]

Hey,
I never said that under typical white/blue led combo corals will not grow or they will only brown.. Please read ALL my posts in this thread again.. I never said that typical LED lamp with white leds cant growth nice colored corals! We are selling taht fixtures since 5 years! (with led leds).
I rather want to say - that, based on our experiences - we get BETTER results(comapring to typical LED lamp combo, ratio) using led lamp WITHOUT white leds - but with dedicated leds to "cover" needed by pigments areas.
Thats all.
We have to agree, that everybody want to get BETTER and better resuls - its like with car engine. My car five years ago needed 10 liters of diesel (for 140KM engine 2.0 liter) - now - its need only 7.5 liter - enigne have also 2.0 liter and 180KM).
Better performance? Yes. Better results? Yes. I am happy? Yes
The same with lighting.
I AGREE that we can get very spectacular results with metal halide, t5 any many different LED lamps.. And I AGREE - that we cant forget about water quality, corals feeding or additional supplementation etc - without that we will not get the results which we want.. Light is only one of important factors - without good water quality - we will not have nice colored corals.. But..
Even if we will have PERFECT water quality - without good light we will NEVER get that also.. You agree?
Its not important - T5, hqi, LED. All they have to be "good".
Personally, I think that T5 lamps are the best for getting spectacular results with sps corals coloration - but I dont want to change them every 3 months and spend a fortune to keep my tank looking good.
Everything what I said in this thread was ONLY about LED lighting - I dont want to start thread/talking about T5 tubes(its also ineteresting) because we will lost a main topic of this thread..
We measured many different light sources - like T5 most popular combos, we used them above the same tanks, with the same water paramters - T5, led , led combo fixture - trying to find a way to reproduce good quality light..
I tried to say(in this thread) that it NOT NEEDED to use white led to promote corals to growth and strong colors.. Its possible WITHOUT using "full" spectrum leds(white).
Thats all!
Its like "second way" to get the similar(or better) results. Some will go with that way(without white leds) - rest will go another(typical led combo). Please take a look - HOW MANY setups with white leds use them on 30-50%?
You can find MANY of examples of that.. Many customers, different LED fixtures...
Some of them will use "20KK schema" because they will get "better coloration" - some of them will decrease white led channel - for getting more "blueish look"..
Why? BEcause white leds produce TOO MUCH BRIGHT LIGHT for our eyes.. And its HIDE corals fluorescence and their "attractive" colors..
I did not invent it - you can read about it in forums users Ecotech, AI, Mitras and PS - many of them prefer the more "blue" than white light - reducing power leds white ..
For corals NO such thing as white light.
Please compare fluorescent T5 bulbs - blue and white - they emit waves of blue, green - and white T5 bulb - also emitt orange and red lightwaves(hence the white to the human eye).
Is able to T5 stained corals? Of course you do!
Is there a light source "full spectrum" within the meaning of this thread? No.
Just to see graphs of typical fluorescent spectrum as ATI Aquablue and Blue Plus (for example).

 

[Ron Reefman]

Przemek, I for one, really appreciate your participation in this thread and on the forum in general. There is far too much anecdotal 'evidence' and even old wives tales tossed around as 'facts'. So your expertise is a welcome breath of fresh air.

Jack & penfold2, I pretty much agree with you guys. Too much is made of small chages in lighting. It was bad before led with 6500K, 10K, 16K and 20K MH and a big variety of t5 colors. But leds have just blown up the 'find the perfect color' discussion (or argument). Questions like, "Should I use 10 450nm and 5 450nm leds or the other way around?" Yikes! I know you can do it wrong, but it almost takes somebody trying to get it wrong in order to get it wrong enough to fail.

And then there is the problem with what over all color do you want? "Well I want a natural looking reef." OK, so just what is natural environment when it comes to a 24" to 36" deep reef tank with corals that came from considerably deeper water? Are you trying for a fixture that looks like natural sunlight? Or should it be natural sunlight at 5' deep in saltwater? Or 10' deep, or 20' deep, or 30' deep? Have you looked at coral while 20' or 30' deep in the water without any artificial light? It all looks gray. And that's just the coral's point of view. Do your eye's want white, sunlight yellow, slightly blue, very blue? And what if I run several different over all colors over my reef for 4 or 5 hours at a time?

It's simple, there is no one right answer. Learning and understanding the minutia is a great goal to have, arguing about it like it's life or death is silly. :headwallblue:

 

[sirreal63]

Hey,
Everything what I said in this thread was ONLY about LED lighting - I dont want to start thread/talking about T5 tubes(its also ineteresting) because we will lost a main topic of this thread..

Perhaps, but by not examining why other light sources are successful, it makes it counter-intuitive to discuss how to make LED better. It is what led to that horrid leap that 550nm+ spectrum only made corals brown. If that statement had not been examined then it would have gone on as truth when it is not truth, it does not really matter who made that leap, it is false and needs to be examined. That part of the spectrum may have the greatest impact on brown coloration, I do not know, you guys are way smarter than I am, I just know that you can have "not brown" corals with lighting that has a heavy amount of 550nm+ spectrum.

Just looking at the graph of the 10K XDE you will note the second highest peak is right at 550 with the third at 590nm. I have been using 10K bulbs since I began in this hobby and I have not had the experience of all brown corals, with bulbs that have been vilified for years as only growing brown corals.

Maybe it is off topic to discuss other lighting methods, but to me it is right on topic. I made my career managing business's, I have gone into failing companies and laid waste to people and methods that did not work. Before I ever made a single change, I examined why things were being done the way they were. Sometimes what appears to be wrong may actually be the best way to do something. We know what works, we know what spectrum has been used with great success in the past, it is relevant to how to make LED's better, at least to me. :beer:

 

[penfold2]

Hey,
I never said that under typical white/blue led combo corals will not grow or they will only brown.. Please read ALL my posts in this thread again.. I never said that typical LED lamp with white leds cant growth nice colored corals! We are selling taht fixtures since 5 years! (with led leds).

I tried to say that this is not your stance. I hope that was clear. I think much of the argument came from some of Vannpytt's claims, which you seem to disagree with.

I rather want to say - that, based on our experiences - we get BETTER results(comapring to typical LED lamp combo, ratio) using led lamp WITHOUT white leds - but with dedicated leds to "cover" needed by pigments areas.
Thats all.

Maximizing visible fluorescence. I think this is a worthy goal like I said.

We have to agree, that everybody want to get BETTER and better resuls - its like with car engine. My car five years ago needed 10 liters of diesel (for 140KM engine 2.0 liter) - now - its need only 7.5 liter - enigne have also 2.0 liter and 180KM).
Better performance? Yes. Better results? Yes. I am happy? Yes
The same with lighting.

But maximum visible fluorescence is not inherently better, that's a subjective statement. Many people would agree with you, but some people prefer a very bright looking tank that resembles noon sun on a shallow reef with just enough blue light to bring out some bright, vivid colors, but not necessarily a glow in the "dark" look. I think this perceived brightness would drown out much of the fluorescence you aim to highlight.

I tried to say(in this thread) that it NOT NEEDED to use white led to promote corals to growth and strong colors.. Its possible WITHOUT using "full" spectrum leds(white).
Thats all!

I completely agree.

 

[nynick]

Keep in mind that if you managed to give a coral the exact right spectrum it would look like a drab lump. A very happy drab lump but still.....

A blue coral is blue not because it loves that shade of light but because it reflects it. A perfectly lit coral, from it's point of view, is probably brown. The fact that a coral does not sparkle is not a good measurment of it's health.

I know a lot of you are very aware of this but there seems to be some major confusion between looking great and being healthy on these forums. I for one want both so bring on a little "junk light" with the good stuff.

 

[Pacific Sun RD]

I never said that 550nm+ lightwaves will make corals brown.

About corals color - its not a rule (like you told - not always)
Corals which have GFP proteins and are green for our eyes - are green because they are lighted by BLUE light(not green). The emitt green light after getting some energy from blue lightwaves - we was talking about that in this thread(please take a look for charts posted by me).

 

[nynick]

I never said that 550nm+ lightwaves will make corals brown.

About corals color - its not a rule (like you told - not always)
Corals which have GFP proteins and are green for our eyes - are green because they are lighted by BLUE light(not green). The emitt green light after getting some energy from blue lightwaves - we was talking about that in this thread(please take a look for charts posted by me).

I never said you did, my post was not at all directed towards you. It was also VERY generalized.

I just don't think posting photos of the same coral claiming that it is healthier in one picture based on coloration is very reliable. I can make a dying coral look fantastic by blasting it with UV and actinics.

 

[Vannpytt]

Please keep in mind that Przemek and my opinions are not the same. He adds great value and insight to this thread, and for this I thank him. (And so do others).

My starting point of this thread was that the "white" LEDs are junk and I still stand by that statement. As this has progressed, there has been derailing into MH vs T5 vs LED and the whole coral health issue which was not my intention. However, I too, like Jack, find this relevant to the new discussion this has turned in to.

 

[nickdo]

I think there are so many mis-understanding in this thread.

We are originally talking about Fluorescence pigments and white LED.

Emitting Fluorescence pigments Studies
400nm~580nm are most useful for that, I think there are no people disagree/disprove that.

And then We start to talking about somethings which contain contradictions Such as, Zooxanthellae, corals health etc.

For the SPS only,
Contradiction between Zooxanthellae and Fluorescence pigments
-less Zooxanthellae, Fluorescence pigments pop, coral starve & long ploys extension for Zooplankton.
-more Zooxanthellae, Fluorescence pigments hide, good health.

For the discussion on the Zooxanthellae Studies

• Which is benefited from Blue&Red spectrum.
• Wild shallow corals get perfect condition on spectrum and get full of Zooxanthellae. Look very deep color or brown.

I want to point out that MHL is not reproduce natural shallow water spectrum&condition, you can also use over power light to make coral split out Zooxanthellae. There are no such "use full spectrum = brown". It only said that in shallow water condition that is suitable for Zooxanthellae growth and Zooxanthellae intensity is so high in this condition(I'm not using "brown" here).

Most people think shallow water SPS are also colorful.(ex, green, red, yellow SPS), but they just contain non Fluorescence pigments which are green/yellow/red/brown. Some maybe same as Zooxanthellae color, so that is nice.(by Zooxanthellae studies). But this is not we talking about, we are talking Fluorescence pigments. two different things

 

[moze229]

After reading the entire contents of this thread, I will say that I have a headache and don't know a whole lot more than I did when I started.

I too was wondering about the significance of the white LEDs being used. I didn't have a position one way or another about the white LED being harmful. I just don't have a way of knowing that.

I moved from MH to LED about 9 months ago, and it's been a struggle for me to get things dialed in. This very likely has to do with my ignorance of lighting more than the effectiveness of the LED fixture.

As we know, most standard LED fixtures today come with 50/50 white/blue LED, with two contrallable dimmers - one for each side. (I understand that there are other configurations, but let's just make it easy because I already have a headache.) In another thread, I posed the question - if one were to use ONLY the white LEDs (assuming that it had enough modules to cover the area) would that be sufficient to grow/maintain coral health? From what I gather from this thread thus far, the general consensus is no. I always thought the white LEDs were installed on these fixtures to simply allow us to adjust the light to our personal preference, rather than providing any useful light for the corals. I may or may not be wrong in thinking this. I will offer one interesting observation though. It doesn't prove or disprove anything, and it's far from a scientific approach.

I have a clam. As we all know, clams react to sudden changes of light, particularly a quick dimming effect. (Swiping your hand under the light, for instance.) When I have both white and blue LEDs on my fixture activated, the clam reacts. When I have only the blue lights activated at 100%, the clam reacts. When I have only the white lights activated at 100%, the clam does NOT react. What does this mean? Does it mean that the clam doesn't "see" the white light? Perhaps the clam doesn't even utilize the white portion of my LED lighting. I just don't know.

After reading all of this, I'm seriously considering going back to my MH fixture. There are just too many variables and unknowns. Are my corals growing with this light? Yes. Are there any issues with my corals? Not really. I've noticed slightly less coloration, but that likely has to do with my "dialing in" period.

I need a PAR meter.

 

[evolutionZ]

That being said, all fixtures that uses cool white as their whites are useless? At least warm or neutral white have red and other spectrum mix in them.

 

[moze229]

That being said, all fixtures that uses cool white as their whites are useless?

This is precisely what is being debated, in addition to whether or not these white lights actually create a detrimental effect to coral. Both sides bring up valid points. I'm just here to follow along

 

[zachts]

that's kind of where this thread has gone, the standard white and blue LEDs don't cut it for good coral pigmentation.

you raise and interesting question on will only white leds grow coral, I'd bet the answer is yes, they would just be an unattractive brown color. the standard cool white emits more than enough blue light relative to other spectrums to grow coral, much more blue than would be found coming from natural daylight, it is just a very narrow spectrum.

I don't know of anyone who's used only white LEDs on a reef tank, lots of planted tanks and sumps though, but not for coral growing.

one of the biggest issues with switching to LED is the acclimation to the new light, it usually requires much less brightness to achieve the same usable light for the coral.

It's likely that your light just lacks the spectrum of light needed for best growth, or possibly there is a lack of the proper nutrition or water parameters for the coral to have better coloration.

as for your clam observation, that is interesting, I don't know much about clams but wonder if it has to do with the spectrum of light or the relative intensity between the two? normally you'd have a lot more blue than white LEDs, so it may just not be bright enough with only white on for the clam to react...