Open letter to the LED industry

[zachts]

That being said, all fixtures that uses cool white as their whites are useless? At least warm or neutral white have red and other spectrum mix in them.

I would not say useless, just way over used. Used by themselves they do not cover enough spectra of light in the right ratios to create the best colors in coral and provide visually bright good looking light to humans who are viewing the tank. As the OP started this thread to discuss with the LED industry "No currently available white LEDs produce the right spectrum of white light for use on a reef tank". and it will likely be a very long time as also pointed out before they do, due to cost and difficulty in production on a small scale. Pacific Sun presented the approach they are using to work around this using currently available LED technology and still achieve the desired results.

It's clearly evident what's needed, the question now is what's the best way to achieve this for the hobby??

 

[moze229]

that's kind of where this thread has gone, the standard white and blue LEDs don't cut it for good coral pigmentation.

you raise and interesting question on will only white leds grow coral, I'd bet the answer is yes, they would just be an unattractive brown color. the standard cool white emits more than enough blue light relative to other spectrums to grow coral, much more blue than would be found coming from natural daylight, it is just a very narrow spectrum.

So, if I were to use only the white LEDs (they are rated at 10,000K - who knows what that means since we can't really compare it to MH lighting) I would have survived corals that would eventually turn brown. But brown under what lighting? Looking at coral under white light makes them look completely different than looking at them under blue lighting. And different yet under the combination of the two. And the white lights on my fixture are rated at 10,000k, suggesting they are full spectrum lights. From my understanding of LED, this can't be true.

I don't know of anyone who's used only white LEDs on a reef tank, lots of planted tanks and sumps though, but not for coral growing.

I haven't seen this either. But that's 100% because it's not what we want to see in reef tanks. Planted tanks utilize these same light fixtures (without the blue LEDs, but all white instead) and they grow plants well. That tells me photosynthesis is entirely possible, but what are the differences between this process in plants vs. coral?

one of the biggest issues with switching to LED is the acclimation to the new light, it usually requires much less brightness to achieve the same usable light for the coral. It's likely that your light just lacks the spectrum of light needed for best growth, or possibly there is a lack of the proper nutrition or water parameters for the coral to have better coloration.

I'm actually leaning towards nutrient deficiency right now. I don't feed often enough.

as for your clam observation, that is interesting, I don't know much about clams but wonder if it has to do with the spectrum of light or the relative intensity between the two? normally you'd have a lot more blue than white LEDs, so it may just not be bright enough with only white on for the clam to react...

The light is 'bright' enough, trust me on that one. It's very intense. But intensity (PAR kind of) makes no difference if the clam cannot utilize it. My question is, how do these life forms react to unusable light? Is it just ignored? How does it affect them? These are things I'd like to know.

BTW - How's life in the big St. Louie these days? I was born and raised suburbia and spent 30 years there. Been out here for 9.

 

[asid61]

Well, multichips provide good color blending.
This place sells customizable ones: http://www.leds-global.com/Wholesale-Discount-hybrid-and-multichips-led_c88.html

That can help phase out the color blending issues when using other colors to replace whites, such as red and cyan.

 

[zachts]

for all intents and purposes a 10,000k LED is no different than a cool white LED, it just has more blue relative to the green and yellow on the spectrum graph. Kelvin rating of LEDs is rather useless, you have to look at the spectrum graph to see what you really are getting.

you can compare it to MH if you have the spectrum graphs. as pointed out in the first few posts of the thread and very well summarized in the you tube video (if you can sit though an hour long lecture about lighting) the light from a MH and the Light from a white LED are not at all the same.

 

[CHSUB]

The whole problem with LEDs right now is that no one has an answer. White LEDs, high par, too much par, red LEDs, etc etc"¦..it's all guess work at the reefers expense. Pacific Sun has no clue what set-up is better, less than a year ago their "œbest" lamp featured cree white xml LEDs now their newest lamp is entirely without xml LEDs. I used LEDs for 8 months and my acro's suffered, now I'm back to MH and all is right again.

 

[asid61]

The whole problem with LEDs right now is that no one has an answer. White LEDs, high par, too much par, red LEDs, etc etc"¦..it's all guess work at the reefers expense. Pacific Sun has no clue what set-up is better, less than a year ago their "œbest" lamp featured cree white xml LEDs now their newest lamp is entirely without xml LEDs. I used LEDs for 8 months and my acro's suffered, now I'm back to MH and all is right again.

Except for the fact that we have spectral graphs of both the leds and of absorption spectra. And can make hypothesis on what we need with that information.
The problem with leds is that each fixture has to be like the other fixtures, with only a little difference. Otherwise, consumers won't risk buying such a radical fixture. DIY fixtures don't have these constraints, so can be much better than commercial ones.
Some fixtures, like the Reef Breeders and Razor and Radion are taking steps in the right direction, but it's still a ways to go before violets that hit the 430nm peak become dominant.
The difference between the Cree XM-L, XP-G and XT-E series is minimal. It doesn't really matter, except for that the XM-L tends to have a lower CRI.

 

[zachts]

The whole problem with LEDs right now is that no one has an answer. White LEDs, high par, too much par, red LEDs, etc etc…..it’s all guess work at the reefers expense. Pacific Sun has no clue what set-up is better, less than a year ago their “best” lamp featured cree white xml LEDs now their newest lamp is entirely without xml LEDs. I used LEDs for 8 months and my acro’s suffered, now I’m back to MH and all is right again.

Pacific Sun has more than demonstrated that he knows what is needed from LED. It is no secret how to replicate the exact spectrum of the major MH and fluorescent light bulb spectrums using LED. It is simple mathematics and science to determine the right combination of LEDs to do the same thing.

Pacific Sun and the rest of the comercial reef lighting vendors is somewhat bound by producing what is economicaly viable in the current market. an led fixture comercially made that replicates the spectrum of the lights I've used for over 10years would be cost prohibitive and not nearly as efficient as what all commercial reef fixtures are doing(predominately royal blue based). the reason is that the LED technology is not quite there yet and won't ever be exactly there because it is driven by commercial lighting industry not hobby uses. so royal blue is the most efficient led chip available. and since it grows coral it will always, at least for a long time yet be the preffered trade off for efficiency and profit over the "correct" light spectrum. at least untill enough of the hobby consumers wise up and stop buying fixtures that aren't doing what they should be.

it just requires too many different chips and driver channels to be terribly practical for commercial production given the vast variablility of what consumers "like" for such a small market as the reef hobby.

I know exactly the spectrum of LEDs I need to replicate VHO lighting I've used for over 10 years, and prefer over MH(that's just my personal preference). problem is one of the color chips needed doesn't exist yet (though I've heard rumors that philips has one just not sharing with anyone yet) to use an RGB type approach. the other problems are that the 420, and 430 nm leds needed are about half the power and efficiency of a royal blue so you need twice as many to produce the same growth of coral as with a system using only royal blue, making upfront cost higher and efficiency lower, since VHO actinics use NO royal blue and the white tubes only have one of many spikes at royal blue (for DIY not such a huge deal, but for commercial industry why would anyone buy an LED fixture that uses twice the power for twice the price as another manufacturere's) this is a problem of uneducated consumers driving the market(typical).

still one more problem and the point of the orighal post is that "white" leds do not nor will not anytime soon be producing light spectrums suitable for the sole "white" light source on a reef tank if you want to replicate what can be done with other lighting options.

......I think I started ranting a little bit in there somewhere ........
:beer:

 

[eyesinthedrk]

What I like is how 5 years ago it was t5 are "okay" for softies polyps and some LPS but you NEED MH for the high light corals. Now I hear everything from LED cant grow coral or sure green corals look good but not reds and blues, you need t5 or mh to grow coral with good color. Same arguments, just a new light to pick on. Did t5s get better? Are the individual reflectors get even more polished? Or did the detractors just have to eat crow and admit they were talking out their backsides?

It sounds the same as my mom complaining about cell phones.my grandpa complaining about automatic transitions, and to be honest me complaining about skinny jeans.

My pendants have two different whites (can't remember the k) on one channel and blue and royal blue on the other. Growth is great colors are awesome. They will fry your sps if you don't light acclimate properly. I know I did. But you can try your theoretical science all you like it doesn't change the results. My tank has been led since day one almost a year ago no zeo or bio pellets or vodka or any other speciality methods just a sump with a large skimmer a huge fugue and a small reactor with carbon in it

Sunset milli 4-27-13

Last week

Tyree purple acro my first sps purchased last October that I damn near killed.
After recovery around march/April

Last weekend

Garff bonsai a known slow grower 4-27

Last week aweful pic but you can see that it's fully encrusted the plug

Pics taken with an iPhone and no photo editing other than the built in HDR feature
If you just like mh or t5 better then good for you. But this need to make wild and false accusations for god only knows why is ridiculous. Like I stated at the beginning this was the same thing 5 years ago about t5s

 

[evolutionZ]

So far my razor 16k (cool white and warm white mix) is providing good growth and color. Especially my purple valida. I've been told before fixtures that uses cool white and mix in multi colors like red and green are useless and just mix in the colors to make it look "pro" guess that fella wasn't wrong. That's why I bought the razor and I'm having good result. On the contrast my friend with AI vega is suffering.

 

[Pacific Sun RD]

There is no such thing as "white" light for coral. They do not have eyes and do not see it as we are. It is we the people, we see average spectrum of light as white in color .. For us will be both white light emitted by the LED RGB and white sun light will - although the two light sources are completely different wave charts.
If someone says that using a white LED lamp with his corals s and now live under another light source - I'm sorry - but most likely his lamp was not properly configured (too long exposure to light, too much power) or poorly acclimatized corals s.
Think about it - if indeed there is a difference in the "quality" of the light between the lamps - for example, Ecotech, GHL, Vertex or PS that use LED's from the same manufacturer and allow you to control each channel separately?
(I write about comparable models).
I'll write it again - because I have a feeling that not everyone read this thread from the beginning.
White light does not kill the coral.
White light is not BAD.
White light emitted by the LED, if it is improperly set supports the growth of symbiotic algae - by what right color pigment coral is covered by a brown color symbiotic algae.
Therefore corals in natural water, just below the surface of light are cream / brown color as these are ideal conditions for the growth of symbiotic algae in their tissues.
I will repeat once again - I do not deny the use of white LEDs in LED lamps.
I wrote only that, there are ways to do it (adjusted spectrum of light) without the use of white LEDs - and they are unnecessary for this.
Please answer the question: How many of you reduced power white LEDs then noticed an improvement in coloration corals? Do all of you use their lights set to 100% (each channel?) I'm sure most do not. Why?
1 Because the visual effect of the aquarium is "miserable" - a "warm" light.
2 Because corals "darkened" and lost their original color.
This is what I wrote earlier, it is only our own observations (our staff and aquarists who tested models of SMT matrix in the last six months) - no white LEDs.
It works - and it is not a matter of faith, but a proven fact.

At the end of a discuss.
I'm bald so I have to shave every day(not 100%) . 10 years ago used the razor with two blades (made by G. .....), 7 years ago with 3 blades(because they told - ots better!), 5 last ago with 4 blades (because it was better again!) - and since last year - with 5 blades and battery inside(!) ...
In view of this I believe that Gillette deceived me 10 years ago? (They said it was the best razor!)
No.
Do I believe that today's razors are better than five years ago?
I think so.
What is this?
This is the advancement of experience and our knowledge .How it works.
Who knows, maybe some time this thred will return, as it turns out that some of the arguments raised in this thread will prove to be correct. Anyone can go his way, here you are not forced to choose "only the best".
This is the right place to discuss, right?
Have a nice day!

PS. some pics to start a nice day!

 

[Vannpytt]

Rant

No offense, but that's not a whole lot of growth and color. There might be other factors giving you "bad" results, like KH/CA or high/low nutrients, but that's for another thread.

 

[Vannpytt]

The whole problem with LEDs right now is that no one has an answer. White LEDs, high par, too much par, red LEDs, etc etc"¦..it's all guess work at the reefers expense. Pacific Sun has no clue what set-up is better, less than a year ago their "œbest" lamp featured cree white xml LEDs now their newest lamp is entirely without xml LEDs. I used LEDs for 8 months and my acro's suffered, now I'm back to MH and all is right again.

Like others already said, Pacific Sun has a very good idea what is needed, and are atleast 1 generation ahead of the rest given current fixtures. That they used one kind a year ago, and a new type now, shows innovation and progress. Sticking with old ideas does not and I for one prefer to move forward. He has also posted results, which shows that the corals agree.

 

[Pacific Sun RD]

AI Hydra

.

It is difficult to argue with that, because tt's not looking like real spectrum chart - it looks like peaks arent in proper place, but maybe I'm wrong.

 

[Vannpytt]

It's not looking like real spectrum chart - it looks like peaks arent in proper place, but maybe I'm wrong.

I thought the exact same thing when I first saw it. It's stretched out as to not make it look like it has any peaks. I don't know if it's correct relative to eachother, but one can assume it's had a "marketing magic" touch.

 

[Ron Reefman]

No offense, but that's not a whole lot of growth and color. There might be other factors giving you "bad" results, like KH/CA or high/low nutrients, but that's for another thread.

No offence Van, the colors may not be great (they are OK), but how can you make any comment at all about growth based on a single photo?

I enjoy a lot about this thread, mainly the well thought out discussion and facts brought by some. It's the over the top and half baked arguments by a few that make it difficult to stay with sometimes.

 

[Big E]

Przemek,

Do you have any pictures of Red Acroporas?

 

[Pacific Sun RD]

@Big E
Not many, but I found few for you(rather pink not red):

 

[nynick]

Since this is supposed to be an open letter to the LED industry, let me rant a little.

You guys are a bunch of techies who just love being innovative and trying out new things. Some reefers share this passion but most of us do not. We all know what the best and most popular MH/T5 combos are. What is so hard about just mimicking this light in a multi chip? It might not be 100% perfect but it has proven that it works very well. If you could do it with a kick *** heatsink so we can skip the fans/insane evaporation too that would be fantastic. I know it sounds boring but you would sell a lot of those.

Imagine a world where you could stop worrying about spectrums and the quality of your top off water.

 

[Vannpytt]

No offence Van, the colors may not be great (they are OK), but how can you make any comment at all about growth based on a single photo?

I enjoy a lot about this thread, mainly the well thought out discussion and facts brought by some. It's the over the top and half baked arguments by a few that make it difficult to stay with sometimes.

No offense Ron, but he posted pictures, give or take, 4 months apart. I suggest you read the post in subject before you go through the trouble of commenting it. (Guess you want to include yourself in those few)

 

[Ron Reefman]

Van, when you are right, you are right. I humbly apologize. I got to looking at pics and didn't see the text. And you are right, that isn't much growth.