Open letter to the LED industry

[Lassef]

I took some pictures today that in a good way illustrates how bright light in "the lumen window" extinguishes flouresencens coulors of the corals. One side of my tank gets a lot of sun during the afternoon - these images show how a ray of evening sunlight completely "turn off" the fluorescent coulors for our eyes. My light on this coral is a Dream Chip where the white light (10 000 K + 16 000 K) is about 25% and the blue channels account for 75% (blue = 420,430,445 and 455 nm) This combination provides for my eyes a white light. There are blueish in the photographs - they are not manipulated at all. The first picture shows the coral when sunshine hits it.

The second image (taken 60 seconds after) shows how it was when I stood so I shaded the sunbeam.

I think the pictures speak for themselves.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[wayne in norway]

Look, and I really hate to say this and it's not a criticism, but are you sure that the data for the Purple Plus is from a purple plus ? I have both a coral and a purple plus , and they appear visually very different. The coral is, I'd guesstimate a really nice 17K, the purple plus is, well, purple, and like a less red Fiji Plus. I cannot believe the spectrum has that much green or yellow if any.

As a second note, and a cautionary one on comparing spectra, those plots are obviously a line fitted thro' a graph of intensity against wavelengh (x) that is measured. I am pretty certain that if I kind of doubled the bin of the x axis (from say 5 nm to 10nm) the coral plus would look awfully similar to the purple plus plot.
Fiddling around with the bin size can change the appearance of these plots, particularly for spiky T5 to the approximated plots of LED, so watch it,

Lasse - that's a really interesting observation and one I hadn't thought about - I have always assumed that the reflected daylight is simply overwhelming the fluorescing colours

I would guess I'm totally out of whack with this thread as I'm pretty happy with my sol and radion combination. I'm more bothered by over focussing , poor spread, excessive shadowing and other implementation problems than spectral deficiencies

 

[marc price]

- i have always assumed that the reflected daylight is simply overwhelming the fluorescing colours

i would guess i'm totally out of whack with this thread as i'm pretty happy with my sol and radion combination.

I'm more bothered by over focussing , poor spread, excessive shadowing and other implementation problems than spectral deficiencies

+1

 

[Lassef]

Lasse - that's a really interesting observation and one I hadn't thought about - I have always assumed that the reflected daylight is simply overwhelming the fluorescing colours

I would guess I'm totally out of whack with this thread as I'm pretty happy with my sol and radion combination.

I´m sorry for bad english - the right sentence should be
"extinguishes flouresencens coulors of the corals for our eyes" My idea is that the reflecting colours - as you say - overwhelming the fluorescing colours. but mainly because that the reflecting lights is in the "Lumen window"

Which combination do you have of tubes and MH?

Sincerely Lasse

 

[wayne in norway]

Det går bra Lasse. I have most everything in my cave but progrssed thro' Radium 400 -> t5 -> radion + sol combination.

The t5 combination i used was 4 blue plus, 2 blue spesial, coral and an actinic, but i have tested an awful lot of tubes

 

[Pacific Sun RD]

Look, and I really hate to say this and it's not a criticism, but are you sure that the data for the Purple Plus is from a purple plus ? I have both a coral and a purple plus , and they appear visually very different. The coral is, I'd guesstimate a really nice 17K, the purple plus is, well, purple, and like a less red Fiji Plus. I cannot believe the spectrum has that much green or yellow if any.

As a second note, and a cautionary one on comparing spectra, those plots are obviously a line fitted thro' a graph of intensity against wavelengh (x) that is measured. I am pretty certain that if I kind of doubled the bin of the x axis (from say 5 nm to 10nm) the coral plus would look awfully similar to the purple plus plot.
Fiddling around with the bin size can change the appearance of these plots, particularly for spiky T5 to the approximated plots of LED, so watch it,

Lasse - that's a really interesting observation and one I hadn't thought about - I have always assumed that the reflected daylight is simply overwhelming the fluorescing colours

I would guess I'm totally out of whack with this thread as I'm pretty happy with my sol and radion combination. I'm more bothered by over focussing , poor spread, excessive shadowing and other implementation problems than spectral deficiencies

That question was to me? (about Purple Plus chart)
Yes, it was taken from Purple Plus.
Something small spectrum change have strong visual effect and you can see how overal light will change to our eyes after removing some phosphorous responsible for lightwaves emited from "orange" area.

 

[Pacific Sun RD]

Few SPS corals under tritons (after 12 months using that lamps) and 18 months total under LED only.
I hope that full review and tank description will be posted here by tank owner ;-) (Bret from Australia)
So - you can see how much important is adding some special, dedicated LEDs to built discrete spectrum.. Even warm colors(like on this strawberry acro) looks simply amazing..
Enjoy! (photos made by iphone as I know)

 

[Ludo974]

I wish to know how many LED (cyan, green, amber and deep red) there are on the Triton S.

 

[Vannpytt]

The 90+ CRI yellow chips are not white. It's same, but different..

I would like a 90+ CRI LED with high kelvin, but the coating of the current LEDs won't provide. Like many others pointed out in this thread, the best way is to emulate, dropping as many of the white LEDs as possible, and make up a DIY/Pacific Sun fixture without them. I think they are viable as a baseline on about 5-10% of the mix.

 

[Vannpytt]

Few SPS corals under tritons (after 12 months using that lamps) and 18 months total under LED only.
I hope that full review and tank description will be posted here by tank owner ;-) (Bret from Australia)
So - you can see how much important is adding some special, dedicated LEDs to built discrete spectrum.. Even warm colors(like on this strawberry acro) looks simply amazing..
Enjoy! (photos made by iphone as I know)

I would tap dat!

 

[MisterP]

After reading this whole thread there is tons of really good information and some not so good.

I truly believe once folks see a few succesful tanks with LEDs they will become more accepted. No doubt MH and T5 work but LEDs can accomplish the same thing. Just another option to choose from. Please check out this guys tank from the Nano forum it is one of the best I have seen nano or not. His tank uses Radions and I thiink the pics speak for themselves.

A side note....I'm not taking any sides just posting a link for you guys to check out a really successful, bad *** nano tank using LEDs.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2287628

 

[MisterP]

Here is another really successful LED driven tank. I just don't understand why people think LEDs don't work.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2125739&page=10

 

[jda]

This is all based on expectations. For lots of people, there are not yet any successes with LED and cannot yet accomplish the same things. For others, they can. It all depends on what you have seen and what you are looking for.

There are many long time SPS'ers who would likely be very disappointed with the colors in both of those tanks, assuming that they are accurate.

Nobody says they don't work to some degreet. The argument is if they work well enough. ...this all boils down to expectations.

 

[MisterP]

:thumbsup:

Blows my mind how people think these colors aren't nice looking. I'm not saying they cant improve or what ever but geez.

Lets see your tank jda

 

[jda]

They are nice. Nobody said that they are not nice. Many have seen better and want better. Again... expectations.

I am in Boulder, Colorado. You are welcome any time. Seeing tanks with your own eyes will be the only way that you will be able to tell where so many are coming from... especially in this argument. Then, see hundreds of them and you will see that the tank at Neptunes or Vivid (two that are commonly mentioned, for reference) just are not as good as they can be. I don't post pictures because of this, but my home is always open and I can arrange a few other tanks for a mini tour that are fantastic. Building friends face-to-face is always good too.

 

[MisterP]

Again....I don't have a horse in the MH vs LED debate. I just wish guys would expand their mind. Check this past TOTM winner and look at the colors.

LEDs powering the left side of the tank and MH on the right. To me either is acceptable. I can't see a case for people saying stuff like .... oh those colors wouldn't be acceptable to some of the guys I know.

The colors are practically popping out of the tank they are so bright.

http://reefkeeping.com/joomla/index.php/current-issue/article/119-tank-of-the-month

 

[MisterP]

jda---- I'm not trying to get into a thing with you or challenge you into showing your tank in person I'm just saying throw out what you have to counter the claims that you make on peoples colors not being up to your standards. What are your standrds is what I'm getting at. And this is a rhetorical question and you don't have to answer if you don't want to.

Expand your mind and look around at some of the tanks that exist with LEDs.

Light is but a small piece of the puzzle and LEDs can certainly perform the task...very well in some cases.

 

[jda]

Everybody has their own standards. Go out, see something and make up your own standard. My standard does not matter, other than to offer that standards differ and there are many with standards that LED will not meet. I might caution that you will struggle to build a good personal standard by looking at pictures on the internet - it is not the same as seeing tanks in person, and it matters.

I have seen over a hundred LED lit tanks, in addition to several hundred MH/T5 lit SPS tanks - most from very talented reefers. I have not once seen the color that you can get under MH. I continue to look because I think that one day, LED will get there, so the search continues. I have spent money and gone out of my way to go to shops and see hobbyists while I am out and about in the USA (I don't get outside of the US) - fwiw, San Jose, LA and NYC are great places to see hobbyist tanks. I have skin in this game. These are my opinions and my expectations are based on actual experience. I don't know whose mind is open more than mine, but I don't agree that they are good enough for me. I totally get that they are for some people, and I am happy that they are happy.

We can never get consensus on expectation. Doesn't it intrigue you a little bit to see such a critical mass of people whose expect better than what they have seen these deliver with their own eyes? I might suggest, if I am not overstepping, that you find some of these people in your area and have them take you on a tour to show you 1). why internet pictures are not the same as the real thing and 2). some tanks that are clearly better in their eyes... you may, or may not, agree, but then you will have an awesome basis for comparison.

 

[MisterP]

I agree with you to some degree. I would be curious though to see all the amazing tanks you speak of switched to a high quality LED like Ecotech, GHL or PS with no other parameters changed and see what the long term results are.

 

[ColtonMeng]

My account timed out twice while reading this entire thread, and I loved every minute of it. Thank you to everyone who has contributed so much data.

I'm currently running Orphek PR-156's and have lessened the "daylight" cycle while lengthening the "actinic" or blue cycle and am seeing better coloration- all after moving the lights higher above the (already 36'' deep, 260 gallon) tank and removing the lenses.

As far as I'm concerned and have read thus-far, I'm going to be supplementing my orphek white / blue LED bulbs with T5's in order to achieve a closer desired spectrum requirement. Yes, my greens and pinks pop currently and SPS growth is fair (1cm - 2cm per month) but as far as I've read and heard thus far the added benefit of T5's on gen. 1 LED's is par none.

Thanks again for the absolutely enthralling read.

Colton