Open letter to the LED industry

[Reef_Breeders]

Want to voice your affiliation to the Aquarium industry, so people can take heed of your advice in this regard, or do you want me to tell them? I really don't think your high end affiliate will appreciate your way of dealing with "customers". I heard humility went a long way, but what do I know.



Amazing market strategy, attacking people like that.

I'm not attacking anyone. I just think rgb LEDs are not the solution in their current state. Voice my affiliation? It says I own a company in my signature...


[/QUOTE]

+1

Now, I see there are claims that the "White" LEDs are full spectrum. That's really not useful information. Like Allmost said a few posts up, if you want intensity and PAR out of your "white" LEDs you get a garbage spectrum, and no, it's not corrected by "adding some blue in the mix". The junk spectrum is still there.

Further, you want to claim that corals can adapt? Sure they can, they brown out and stay in poor condition. Sure, you can run your whites at low intensity to help the corals survive and thrive, you can even add more colors to add where the blue is lacking, and run "whites" at very low intensity along with them. All in all, the "white" "Full spectrum" LEDs used in all current fixtures junk, junk and more junk. (Except those not using "white" LEDs).
[/QUOTE]
I'm not sure if you noticed, but I only run 12 whites in array of 55 leds. But, you can do twice that no problem. I have never heard of too much light browning corals, maybe you are just using high kelvin cool whites? If your setup works for you, then that is great. But don't trash what has worked for other people, especially without any scientific evidence to back your claims.

I think this discussion has been worn out.

 

[Vannpytt]

I'm not attacking anyone. I just think rgb LEDs are not the solution in their current state. Voice my affiliation? It says I own a company in my signature...

- Not you, Kologne

I'm not sure if you noticed, but I only run 12 whites in array of 55 leds. But, you can do twice that no problem. I have never heard of too much light browning corals, maybe you are just using high kelvin cool whites? If your setup works for you, then that is great. But don't trash what has worked for other people, especially without any scientific evidence to back your claims.

I think it's as soon as you see the tips bleach.i don't know how long that takes. I have seen a whole tank bleach wi then a day from the non dim able reefbreeders led light. Was not preety

This discussion is worn out since your industry don't want a constructive debate. It would actually take you some effort and insight to make a good coral growing fixture. Luckily I can build my own and don't have to deal with your lack of ability.

"....they bleach with too much light..regardless of the type of light....."

Yes, but a standard LED fixture is not too much light :deadhorse1: compared to what they are used to. The spectrum is off, removing the corals protection to handle correct light.

Ok.. I've been reading through this topic and it is going in circles.. So in your opinion then what current LED fixture seems to be getting closer to what you would like to see? The Hyperion S like was stated earlier?

Well, when people don't want to read the thread, or understand posts it will be circular. Think I stated quite so many times already what I would like to see. Your adding to the circle :headwalls:

These are LED corals 100% grown from frags under LED only! Tank has been going for over 18 months. Keep in mind his fixture has a "junk" spectrum that does not even include any UV.

I need an explanation of how he is able to keep these colored corals. I'm sure he is curious as well how long his corals will live under LED. I want to be able to warn him so he can pull them out before it's too late. IMHO, this tank is surely screwing up some arguments!

Keep in mind that I am a MH guy (I do have Ecoxotic Canons for supplementation) but do plan to go full LED (AI Vega) on the next tank.

More pics available here:
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2256865

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=21588840&postcount=76

:deadhorse: Sure, same story. He's not running high intensity on his "White" removing the bad spectrum.

 

[Mattiejay6]

Vannyptt you said you want a healthy debate but some of the posts you have in this thread are just direct slams on people versus actually debating about led"s. there is a lot of mixed opinions on here and ideas of what light spectrum corals do good with. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and idea of what works.

I am curious as to what your background is a little more to help me validate your postings... If you have the perfect blend of LED"s in your head and can make your own fixtures because everyone else lacks the ability to create the right one in your opinion, then why not start a small business and sell your idea of a better light.. Or maybe build it for your tank and just post pictures and reviews and stats... That might help validate what your saying a little more..

 

[Pacific Sun RD]

but I have a question for PS. Leds build as closed as possible is better for color mixing and Par, why dont u just stick all leds together and use under layer PCB for circuit?

Answer is very easy.
We are using only the best possible led chips with proven and documented parameters.
The use of a multichip system (block) binds to the problems of obtaining the proper heat dissipation from the interior of the LED.
Using a complex matrix systems (all LEDs encased in a single chip) usually binds to the difficulty in controlling each of the chains or supply of different systems common, averaged current (measured with the requirements of "weakest" LED)
In our matrices using Cree chips and three chips produced for our company (but with a size such as Cree).
All LEDs are mounted on high-purity aluminum PCB and heat dissipation systems separated by a few mm is much easier - without the risk of early burnout.

 

[mikeatjac]

The tread is getting off course. There can be no debate that LEDs work, growth and colors are great. If you think otherwise you have your head in the sand. In my reef club there has been a significant shift to LEDs, even by past TOTM tanks. The beauty of LEDs is that in most fixtures if a spectrum is needed you can adjust your fixture accordingly by changing pucks or individual LEDs.

Yes the fixture manufactures need to make some spectrum adjustments but much of that is limited by the LEDs on the market. Also what is necessary for growth and coral color is tempered by what we want to see visually.

 

[aquaman05]

The tread is getting off course. There can be no debate that LEDs work, growth and colors are great. If you think otherwise you have your head in the sand. In my reef club there has been a significant shift to LEDs, even by past TOTM tanks. The beauty of LEDs is that in most fixtures if a spectrum is needed you can adjust your fixture accordingly by changing pucks or individual LEDs.

Yes the fixture manufactures need to make some spectrum adjustments but much of that is limited by the LEDs on the market. Also what is necessary for growth and coral color is tempered by what we want to see visually.

+ 1 to this

 

[jda]

It will all come out in the wash. The abandon rate is increasing, at least anecdotally in message board posts (which is also the only source to declare that there is no debate and that LEDs work). If these manufacturers are any good at running a business then they know the trends, and they also know that their customer bases will not buy upgraded models forever and they will have to quell the abandon rate and win over new consumers. A breakthrough will come to make this appeal to the masses, or LED will be abandoned for something else. Who knows what that something else will be - probably light emitting genetically engineered fireflies in a glass jar with a slice of apple and a cheesecloth top. The point is that if they guys are any good, they will get this right ASAP and cash in while they can because the next innovation is unknown in material, but is known to be coming even faster than this last one and cannot wait to put them out of business.

If you have any supplier contacts, talk to them about lights - the few that I know say that MH sales are growing still, and fast. I am sure that LED sales are growing too. The economy is better and there are probably more new hobbyists or even old hobbyists that needed upgrading. We base most of what we "know" from message boards and people who have their own self interests in mind yet the majority of the people who are in this hobby are not represented, nor do they care to be. Message boards are full of people who need help (noobies), frontrunners, band wagoners and just a few of the long time hobbyists with wide breath and depth of knowledge... lots of lurkers. The second point is that nobody really knows anything about what works, what is proven or what is coming since you cannot really find a large enough of a diverse sample to have good control... even if you could, what works and what is proven is in the eye of the beholder... so just use what is good for you.

 

[Vannpytt]

I am curious as to what your background is a little more to help me validate your postings...

I don't really care if you find my posts valid or not.

If you have the perfect blend of LED"s in your head and can make your own fixtures because everyone else lacks the ability to create the right one in your opinion, then why not start a small business and sell your idea of a better light.. Or maybe build it for your tank and just post pictures and reviews and stats... That might help validate what your saying a little more..

I will.

 

[gcarroll]

:deadhorse: Sure, same story. He's not running high intensity on his "White" removing the bad spectrum.

Look, he is running every LED at 100%. 12k is the spectrum that his fixture is with everything 100%. I know him, he is a very close friend of mine. Like I said he is ruining your argument, which seems to be why you want to discount this! Looks like I'm the one :deadhorse1:

Also because his fixture does not contain any LED's below 455nm, it makes you question if those spectrums below are even necessary.

 

[Vannpytt]

Look, he is running every LED at 100%. 12k is the spectrum that his fixture is with everything 100%. I know him, he is a very close friend of mine. Like I said he is ruining your argument, which seems to be why you want to discount this! Looks like I'm the one :deadhorse1:

Also because his fixture does not contain any LED's below 455nm, it makes you question if those spectrums below are even necessary.

Thank you, I have my tank at home on a custom lighting schedule, I can send you that if you like? This tank is actually just on a manual timer, it is on at 100% for 9 hours a day, I switch it back and forth between 12k and 14k every couple if weeks, for no real reason other than bordom

Christ all mighty, will you stop already? He's down tuned his "white" LEDs, end of story. Then again, 12 000 degrees Kelvin is a pretty random number. It's what we call photometric.

 

[gcarroll]

Christ all mighty, will you stop already? He's down tuned his "white" LEDs, end of story. Then again, 12 000 degrees Kelvin is a pretty random number. It's what we call photometric.

First off it would be end of story if that post were not referring to his 300g tank at home. I guess that it helps that I know him so I would not expect you to know this. Once again, he is ruining your argument!:beer:

The 50g is at work and has no controls other than everything turned up 100%. I believe 12K is what Ecotech says they are which is why he quoted that. Most of the industry does not adhere to the true kelvin temp as it has become pretty much an irrelevant marketing tactic.

 

[wayne in norway]

I did not see such issues as I flipped from radium MH to t5 to radions and the spectra are all rather similar. Actuall the 'odd one out' is t5, with, pre smoothing, a very spiky spectra.

I am still curious w.r.t. The vega spectra, or a radion spectra , how much too much the yellow component is? Why doesn't it matter with mh, or sunlight?

 

[YoungREEFA]

isn't the point of not using as you say "wasteful" white leds is so that we CAN run EVERY LED at 100% and not run whites at a lower intensity because of light that could burn the corals or isn't needed. therefore you are using much more power the leds have to offer, by using many various leds colors all of which have a different peak wavel length when combined will in the end seem white to the eye since light mixes much different then paint.

 

[MadScientistWRX]

Interesting that's why I never understood why people put "full spectrum" when a red and yellow have been proven to grow algae. There is a reason wetlands and seaweed would thrive close to the surface.

"Full Spectrum" is not only for the coral's health but also for the customer to enjoy his or her reef tank or FOWLER. A full spectrum kelvin system easily influences the "pop" sensation and adds great appreciation for your tank.

Is a full spectrum needed? Of course not. But it is personal preference.

 

[Vannpytt]

First off it would be end of story if that post were not referring to his 300g tank at home. I guess that it helps that I know him so I would not expect you to know this. Once again, he is ruining your argument!:beer:

Where are those pictures of this 300gallon LED super tank?

Most of the industry does not adhere to the true kelvin temp as it has become pretty much an irrelevant marketing tactic.

That's been covered already and is old news.

I did not see such issues as I flipped from radium MH to t5 to radions and the spectra are all rather similar. Actuall the 'odd one out' is t5, with, pre smoothing, a very spiky spectra.

I am still curious w.r.t. The vega spectra, or a radion spectra , how much too much the yellow component is? Why doesn't it matter with mh, or sunlight?

Corals grown in shallow waters 1-2m will typically have dull colors (acropora), but grow fairly well. Corals futher down looks all blue, but if you took a picture under "white" light (flash or brining them up) you would see some amazing colors. This is because of the human eye limitations, not the actual color on the coral. Like PS RD's excample, a red car would also look very different on 15-20 meter water, unless you used a flashlight. This is a paradox you want to recreate, the pretty colors under white light to actually see them, that's why we perceive "white" as intense light, although blue is actually more intense for the coral, but it can handle a lot more, and I'm sorry, but I don't have equipment to quantify that. Still waiting for Reef Breeder to post the results he promised..

Now, the sun has 100 CRI and is at 6-6500 degrees Kelvin. This is what I want from a LED chip. (Or 90+ CRI) This white in regards to what we see. Our "white" LEDs at 70 CRI "Cool White 3-8000 degree kelvin" probably has a photometric spectrum of about the same, but the radiometric spectrum is very different. Since you are from Norway, I would assume you saw pictures of Are's T5 lit "Cube"?

The Vega has such a degree of channel control, that they don't really matter. Run them as "high as you must" to keep it visually appealing, I would assume somewhere between 50-70%.

 

[gcarroll]

"Full Spectrum" is not only for the coral's health but also for the customer to enjoy his or her reef tank or FOWLER. A full spectrum kelvin system easily influences the "pop" sensation and adds great appreciation for your tank.

Is a full spectrum needed? Of course not. But it is personal preference.

Very good point! I know a couple years back, Sanjay said that the traditional white/blue fixtures made his fish look drab and colorless. He said the corals don't care, to them photons are photons. Back then he was suggesting the use of warm white LEDs but this was just an alternative fix while multi-channel fixture were being developed.

 

[Reef_Breeders]

Where are those pictures of this 300gallon LED super tank?



That's been covered already and is old news.



Corals grown in shallow waters 1-2m will typically have dull colors (acropora), but grow fairly well. Corals futher down looks all blue, but if you took a picture under "white" light (flash or brining them up) you would see some amazing colors. This is because of the human eye limitations, not the actual color on the coral. Like PS RD's excample, a red car would also look very different on 15-20 meter water, unless you used a flashlight. This is a paradox you want to recreate, the pretty colors under white light to actually see them, that's why we perceive "white" as intense light, although blue is actually more intense for the coral, but it can handle a lot more, and I'm sorry, but I don't have equipment to quantify that. Still waiting for Reef Breeder to post the results he promised..

Now, the sun has 100 CRI and is at 6-6500 degrees Kelvin. This is what I want from a LED chip. (Or 90+ CRI) This white in regards to what we see. Our "white" LEDs at 70 CRI "Cool White 3-8000 degree kelvin" probably has a photometric spectrum of about the same, but the radiometric spectrum is very different. Since you are from Norway, I would assume you saw pictures of Are's T5 lit "Cube"?

The Vega has such a degree of channel control, that they don't really matter. Run them as "high as you must" to keep it visually appealing, I would assume somewhere between 50-70%.

This is one of my favorites, mostly because it is all sps, and the growth can be seen pretty well over 4 months:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2278734


And here are some more growth shots from another tank, also sps:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/s... Before and after pics with 2 32inch fixtures

And there are more, not just with sps, check out our forum, there are tons of tanks with our layout there. And when I get back to the office, I will show you just how much blue there is compared to "white" light detected by a spectroradiometer, even with 12 white leds.

 

[gcarroll]

Where are those pictures of this 300gallon LED super tank?

That tank is not LED only. At the time he could not afford to go all LED on that behemoth.

That's been covered already and is old news.

then why the hell were you so bent off him mentioning the kelvin temp. Or you just trying to be a jerk?

 

[mikeatjac]

It will all come out in the wash. The abandon rate is increasing, at least anecdotally in message board posts (which is also the only source to declare that there is no debate and that LEDs work).

Gee there are many threads here that show LEDs work WITH PICTURES. Do you not have members in your reef club that you can visit.

Some people you just need to take to the moon to prove we were there!

 

[mikeatjac]

Double post