Open letter to the LED industry

[asid61]

That graph has way too much green, red, and yellow. 2/3 that much of each will be good.

 

[senne76]

Ok , thanks, I'm going to try that , the graph is very similar to the hyperion s graph , don't you think so?

 

[senne76]

This is better?:

 

[penfold2]

If you are trying to match the Hyperion spectrum, your first graph was the closest. I did a quick overlay here:



You can see that the blue and green match perfectly on your first graph, while violet, yellow, and red are just slightly high. He also seems to use a lower wavelength of violet than most, but I imagine a standard violet would still work quite well.

 

[asid61]

Our hobby level PAR meters don't read incorrectly on just LED's, they read incorrectly any light source outside their range of accuracy. The same margin of error applies to MH, PC's, T5's and VHO. The significantly more expensive meters such as Sanjay uses are vastly more accurate than the Apogee.

IMO people got the impressions that LED's were more powerful and bleached sps easier was probably because the light is more intense in a shorter range of light, I an mostly convinced that the issues come from not only spectrum, but intensities of spectrum. SPS are very adaptable, not only to light but water parameters, but they don't like a rapid change. IMO, the change in intensity has more to do with issues than the actual spectrum. a 10K-20K MH has a sampling of most of the spectrum and the corals are adapted to the intensities in each, but when you change that to just a few samplings of the spectrum and raise the intensity the corals have to adapt to that change, which explains why people have less bleaching by lowering the intensity of the light down to less than 50% and slowly raising it. The change in overall spectrum can influence the coloration, but it is the increase in intensity in a more narrow range that causes the bleaching. The corals need time to adapt to that intensity change in a narrow range that they did not experience before.

Just my observation.

That's not completely true. I thought that too, then I looked at a couple spectral plots.

As you can see from the graph (dark blue is phoenix 14k) the spectral output of a MH lamp is waaaay more narrow than that of leds. So really, the bleaching problem would be experienced the other way around if leds were weak. And it's not the other way around, so one can conclude that leds have a greater output than MH lamps.

 

[Pacific Sun RD]

adid61, please think.
T5 bleach corals? I will say - rather no.
T5 can "paint" corals with amazing pigments - I wil say - yes.
That spectral chart which you showed isn't comparable.
Why?
Because for Phoenix bulb there wasnt turned on Electric Dark Correction(it easy to see on that chart - for dark blue line).
It should be moved down to X axis - so there will not be any real difference(in spectrum range) between that bulb and newest LED lamps(using also "UV" leds - ca. 400nm).

 

[asid61]

adid61, please think.
T5 bleach corals? I will say - rather no.
T5 can "paint" corals with amazing pigments - I wil say - yes.
That spectral chart which you showed isn't comparable.
Why?
Because for Phoenix bulb there wasnt turned on Electric Dark Correction(it easy to see on that chart - for dark blue line).
It should be moved down to X axis - so there will not be any real difference(in spectrum range) between that bulb and newest LED lamps(using also "UV" leds - ca. 400nm).

I wasn't suggesting T5 bleach corals. I was saying that MH don't but have wider spectral peaks than led.
The other led spectrum charts on there are not there for any reason. I just found a large chart, which happened to have led charts on there too.

 

[Big E]

As you can see from the graph (dark blue is phoenix 14k) the spectral output of a MH lamp is waaaay more narrow than that of leds. So really, the bleaching problem would be experienced the other way around if leds were weak. And it's not the other way around, so one can conclude that leds have a greater output than MH lamps.

You're comparing apple to oranges. That bulb is full spectrum output and your posting diode graphs of single white LEDs. All those humps in those white LEDs are not needed by the corals & why they get fryed when the intensity of those white diodes are turned up.

The only way to compensate is to turn them down or use less diodes in the LED unit. That's one of the conumdrums. We need the white so our eyes can see the colors and for the tank to look bright. The corals don't need them that high.

They need less than 20% compared to the blue spike.

Corals will continue to take in that light as it's right in most coral's exitation area, they will either bleach, look pale or turn brown if they get too much.

 

[Big E]

Przemek..................good info, thanks.

I wasn't challenging you, just simply asking why there isn't any red coral visual emissions plotted above 630? That is orange to the human eye. I would think there should be some emission plots between 640-700 where the we see pure red.

http://capone.mtsu.edu/phys2020/Lectures/Part_1__L1-L5/Lecture_1/EM_Spectrum/em_spectrum.html

Of course we know that - but so what? Can you show me any chart(other aquarium LED lamp) which will bring you information about intensity count(y axis) - together with spectrum readings?
I'm very interested

Some good info here----

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2012/12/corals#disqus_thread

A little more here--this is a great article overall. Plenty of good info in other areas also.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2012/10/aafeature

 

[Pacific Sun RD]

I wasn't suggesting T5 bleach corals. I was saying that MH don't but have wider spectral peaks than led.
The other led spectrum charts on there are not there for any reason. I just found a large chart, which happened to have led charts on there too.

Im sorry - I didnt understood you correctly.

 

[Big E]

I will ask you - do you agree that T5 bulbs can "paint" our corals(sps) amazing?(by many aquarists rated as best light for sps tanks)..

Yes I agree, but I don’t agree that with those popular configurations. I use Coral+ and Blue + in a 1:1 ratio exclusively and I get outstanding coloration especailly with red acroporas…….the overall look of the tank is bright and crisp. I’m also overdriving the bulbs, so I don’t specifically know what the spectral graph would look like.
It’s interesting about you bringing up the Antinic bulbs as I was considering if it would give me a bit more pop on some corals.

The antinic bulbs have always been that finishing touch for Radium halides, to give that extra pop also.

 

[Pacific Sun RD]

Przemek..................good info, thanks.

I wasn't challenging you, just simply asking why there isn't any red coral visual emissions plotted above 630? That is orange to the human eye. I would think there should be some emission plots between 640-700 where the we see pure red.

http://capone.mtsu.edu/phys2020/Lectures/Part_1__L1-L5/Lecture_1/EM_Spectrum/em_spectrum.html




Some good info here----

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2012/12/corals#disqus_thread

A little more here--this is a great article overall. Plenty of good info in other areas also.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2012/10/aafeature

Big E,
No problem -it's discuss, isnt true? ;-)
I know all that arcticles and from our team experience - there are no needed lightwaves with lenght above 650nm.. As you will see on any RedFlo pigments charts and DsRed pigments - almost all pigments have exctiation(or reflection)exctitation point "before" 650nm point.
When have measured light in Bali(spectrum) on 1.5m and 3m depth - there wasnt any lightwaves above 640nm discovered.

 

[Pacific Sun RD]

Yes I agree, but I don’t agree that with those popular configurations. I use Coral+ and Blue + in a 1:1 ratio exclusively and I get outstanding coloration especailly with red acroporas…….the overall look of the tank is bright and crisp. I’m also overdriving the bulbs, so I don’t specifically know what the spectral graph would look like.
It’s interesting about you bringing up the Antinic bulbs as I was considering if it would give me a bit more pop on some corals.

The antinic bulbs have always been that finishing touch for Radium halides, to give that extra pop also.

I dont have Coral+ spectrum reading here(in my home now) but I will show it to you on Monday.
Comparing Coral+ to Purple+ - they are VERY simillar - Coral+ have little stronger peak at green range and Purple+ have stronger peak at orange.
But spectrum area - is almost the same.
I founded poor quality "readings" - so we will compare it on Monday with real charts.

 

[Big E]

Big E,
No problem -it's discuss, isnt true? ;-)
I know all that arcticles and from our team experience - there are no needed lightwaves with lenght above 650nm.. As you will see on any RedFlo pigments charts and DsRed pigments - almost all pigments have exctiation(or reflection)exctitation point "before" 650nm point.
When have measured light in Bali(spectrum) on 1.5m and 3m depth - there wasnt any lightwaves above 640nm discovered.

I'm not making myself clear........I'm not talking about exitation. I know that the corals don't need above those levels.

I'm talking only about what the coral emits visually to our eyes. It's subjective as some people may see some orange when others see red.

It's apparent you didn't read the visual spectrum link I posted.......but that's okay.

It's not a big deal, and this isn't really important in reference to the white diode discussion.......whoever made that chart up decided every coral that looks red is 630 or below. And if a machine is doing the calculations, I can believe it...........it's not a human eye.

 

[Pacific Sun RD]

Ok, maybe I didnt understand you correctly, so lets me clarify.
630-640nm wavelenght are RED for our eyes.
So - all red pigments which will be "hit" by that lighwaves - will reflect it - maybe with little less energy(they will take some energy) and will reflect waves with smaller energy = longer lightwaves = more red(deeper red).
You dont need to light coral with 660nm lightwaves to see "reflected" lightwaves with that lenght.
Because lightwaves energy depend from their lenghts(and vice versa) when coral reflect it - in almost all situation that lightwaves color is "deeper"(moved to right on spectrum axis).
Its like with "fluo green" color...
You can see it without lighting coral by green light. Why? Because when coral is lighted by 450nm light - it absorb some energy from this lightwaves - and emit light with lower energy - longer lightwaves = green light.
We was talking about that in this thread and thats a reason why under blue leds all green(GFP proteins) looks amazing - they are glowing...
For example - Pocillopora damicornis

It have two pigment - P625 and CP-480.
What its mean? That overal light is build by that two pigments(reflected and emited).
P625 pigment have to get lightwaves coming from 570-575nm - and emission will be at 625nm(deep orange)
CP-480 pigment have maximum absorption at 400nm with "shoulder" at 480nm - and when it will "receive" that light - it will emit deep red light.
Please see chart from previous page.
I hope that now I understand you correctly and I was able to clarify that

Regards

Przemek

 

[Ron Reefman]

BigE and Pacific Sun, I may be wrong, but I think there may be some confusion between corals emitting a color and reflecting a color? At the very least, I'm confused! Am I right when I say that a coral can be very red to look at because it is reflecting red light so that is what my eye sees as opposed to the coral emitting a red color? Put it another way, just because it looks red doesn't mean the coral is emitting any red from the pigments. So reflected light and emitted light are different, right? Can you please explain the difference for me (assuming there is a difference).
Thanks.

 

[wildman926]

BigE and Pacific Sun, I may be wrong, but I think there may be some confusion between corals emitting a color and reflecting a color? At the very least, I'm confused! Am I right when I say that a coral can be very red to look at because it is reflecting red light so that is what my eye sees as opposed to the coral emitting a red color? Put it another way, just because it looks red doesn't mean the coral is emitting any red from the pigments. So reflected light and emitted light are different, right? Can you please explain the difference for me (assuming there is a difference).
Thanks.

Ron, PS explains it thoroughly in POST 158 HERE in this thread.

 

[sirreal63]

I wasn't suggesting T5 bleach corals. I was saying that MH don't but have wider spectral peaks than led.
The other led spectrum charts on there are not there for any reason. I just found a large chart, which happened to have led charts on there too.

I am not sure where you got the idea that MH won't bleach corals, rest assured you can certainly bleach, bake, fry and toast corals under MH and T5. :thumbsup:

 

[zachts]

This place calculates graphs based on what leds you use: http://www.1023world.net/diy/spectra/
so that might come in handy for many manufacturers. But I can't comment on it's accuracy.

interesting site, I wish it was in english so I could know what exactly was being graphed, but it apears to only be graphing the numbers on the chart and not an accurate comparison of inetsity (i.e. 12 luxeon greens have the same ouput intensity as 1 deep red? I don't think so)

it might work fine for colors if all are measured in Lumens or mW but not combined.

 

[asid61]

You're comparing apple to oranges. That bulb is full spectrum output and your posting diode graphs of single white LEDs. All those humps in those white LEDs are not needed by the corals & why they get fryed when the intensity of those white diodes are turned up.

The only way to compensate is to turn them down or use less diodes in the LED unit. That's one of the conumdrums. We need the white so our eyes can see the colors and for the tank to look bright. The corals don't need them that high.

They need less than 20% compared to the blue spike.

Corals will continue to take in that light as it's right in most coral's exitation area, they will either bleach, look pale or turn brown if they get too much.

The white led graph is irrelevant. I was trying to find a large plot of a phoenix 14k; the whites are not on there for any reason. Ignore the plots of the whites.
Google the plot of a royal blue led. Then you'll see how wide the peaks are in comparison to MH bulbs.