ORP Redox Potential ???
- Thread starter fullmonti
- Start date
Very interesting, Paul, and thanks. 
fullmonti
now is the time
I'm the one who started this thread, & I got the answer to my original question long ago.
Most of what has followed is over my head, but I'm trying to get a grip on all the processes going on in a reef tank & how they relate to each other. I have a situation in my tank that is driving me crazy & believe it is a chemistry thing, so if you don't mind i"ll ask you guys for your opinions.
I have a 180 sps tank originally set up 1 year ago with dry rock & live rock from my first tank. Have a large reeflo skimmer, 65gal sump (with extra rock), 29gal frug (now a frag tank), 1050W MH lighting, hammerhead pump with ocean motion 4way for flow & 6x18 calcium reactor. I do 20gal + water change every week & water perimeters have always been in line, fish & corals looking good! The problem is algae!!! I had terrible case hair algae. Was using zeo system, reactor carbon source ect, trying to starve the algae out. Wasn't feeding corals at all & fish less than normal, nitrate & phosphate then & now at or near 0 algae thrived. Algae grew in high&low flow&light corals faded. Oddly the hole time macro algae wouldn't hardly grow at all, & never had any algae in the frag tank, to the point if I took a rock with algae on it from the display tank & put it in the frag tank the algae would disappear. Finally at highland reefers suggestion I used algaefix to kill algae, & started to feed corals again. Corals colors came back but so did algae. Cliff said probably just didn't use algae fix long enough, so I'm using it again for about a month now. I scrub dead algae off much as possible with toothbrush but where I can't get it off cyano now grows on the dead algae, never had cyano before at all. I don't understand how algae can grow (there are even couple new kinds now) when nitrate & phosphate so low, AND using algaefix.
I know this is a complicated question to answer & if you want to move it to another thread or PM me thats fine too, but I would really appreciate any insight you might have to offer.
Most of what has followed is over my head, but I'm trying to get a grip on all the processes going on in a reef tank & how they relate to each other. I have a situation in my tank that is driving me crazy & believe it is a chemistry thing, so if you don't mind i"ll ask you guys for your opinions.
I have a 180 sps tank originally set up 1 year ago with dry rock & live rock from my first tank. Have a large reeflo skimmer, 65gal sump (with extra rock), 29gal frug (now a frag tank), 1050W MH lighting, hammerhead pump with ocean motion 4way for flow & 6x18 calcium reactor. I do 20gal + water change every week & water perimeters have always been in line, fish & corals looking good! The problem is algae!!! I had terrible case hair algae. Was using zeo system, reactor carbon source ect, trying to starve the algae out. Wasn't feeding corals at all & fish less than normal, nitrate & phosphate then & now at or near 0 algae thrived. Algae grew in high&low flow&light corals faded. Oddly the hole time macro algae wouldn't hardly grow at all, & never had any algae in the frag tank, to the point if I took a rock with algae on it from the display tank & put it in the frag tank the algae would disappear. Finally at highland reefers suggestion I used algaefix to kill algae, & started to feed corals again. Corals colors came back but so did algae. Cliff said probably just didn't use algae fix long enough, so I'm using it again for about a month now. I scrub dead algae off much as possible with toothbrush but where I can't get it off cyano now grows on the dead algae, never had cyano before at all. I don't understand how algae can grow (there are even couple new kinds now) when nitrate & phosphate so low, AND using algaefix.
I know this is a complicated question to answer & if you want to move it to another thread or PM me thats fine too, but I would really appreciate any insight you might have to offer.
nitrate & phosphate then & now at or near 0 algae thrived.
That's pretty normal for an algae problem. The more algae you have, the more they suck nutrients up and drive the nutrient levels down. But there can still be plenty of nutrients flowing through the system from fish food (or other source, like dead algae) into the live algae.
I'd suggest focus on intercepting those nutrients, especially phosphate, before the algae gets it. So exporting more phosphate somehow, and there are many ways. Using GFO media is a fine way, especially for short term use where the cost is not such a factor.
That's pretty normal for an algae problem. The more algae you have, the more they suck nutrients up and drive the nutrient levels down. But there can still be plenty of nutrients flowing through the system from fish food (or other source, like dead algae) into the live algae.
I'd suggest focus on intercepting those nutrients, especially phosphate, before the algae gets it. So exporting more phosphate somehow, and there are many ways. Using GFO media is a fine way, especially for short term use where the cost is not such a factor.
As long as the water flows through it, and not just around it, that's a fine way to start.
I would suspect Paul that the effluent is delivering Bromine bleach as you do not run the effluent over GAC. And as it move down stream it is oxidizing algae cells trying to grow there. As the water moves down stream it would loose this property and algae would start to grow.
graveyardworm
Premium Member
So if thats the case it could mean that Paul can discontinue dosing bleach to the tank. Its already there.
Paul B
Premium Member
Boomer, sounds good to me. lately I have been leary about using carbon too much or at all. It seems that if the algae in the trough is neutralizing the bromine that is a good thing and only the ozone and bromine by products will be removed. I feel lately that carbon removes too much of what I am trying to preserve by collecting from the sea.
The trough has been in use for a few years and since that time there also has been no large algae cycles as there had been in the past.
So I think ozone can potentially be beneficial by possable removing substances not readily removed by carbon and not removing inorganic trace elements that carbon would eliminate.
If ozone is detrimental, it does not seem to be in my tank.
Of course, Ozone is not needed by every tank, I feel it is a tool that seems to help more than it hurts. My algae trough is another not needed tool but it does help to eliminate unwanted nitrates while growing algae only where I want it.
Im my set up anyway.
The trough has been in use for a few years and since that time there also has been no large algae cycles as there had been in the past.
So I think ozone can potentially be beneficial by possable removing substances not readily removed by carbon and not removing inorganic trace elements that carbon would eliminate.
If ozone is detrimental, it does not seem to be in my tank.
Of course, Ozone is not needed by every tank, I feel it is a tool that seems to help more than it hurts. My algae trough is another not needed tool but it does help to eliminate unwanted nitrates while growing algae only where I want it.
Im my set up anyway.
David
So if thats the case it could mean that Paul can discontinue dosing bleach to the tank. Its already there.
I believe Paul bleaches his collected "ocean" water and then neutralizer the bleach before he use it. Not that he is dosing his tank with bleach. I asked Paul this once before when somebody insinuated he did.
Paul
It is not the Ozone, as has Ozone has a half-live in seawater of only few seconds. It is the Ozone oxidant it produces like "Bromine Bleach" When using GAC it reacts with GAC converting the Bromine bleach, by reducing it, back to Bromide ions, which they were before the addition of the Ozone. Bromine by itself is much more stable that chlorine bleach and is produced much, much more easily than producing chlorine bleach.
I'm not going to tell you to use GAC, it is a choice but does allot more good than harm by along shot. Using GAC when using Ozone is a safety net. Ozone does not really remove anything it just breaks them down in to different things, some good, some bad and some not so good or not so bad, which are then exported by other means. Based on assays from many reef tanks, that use skimmers, filters, GAC or what ever for filtration, about the only ion that is low is Iron. Most all other are over NSW. But these below are using ASW and not NSW like you ( correct), which would give a different set of data.
Paul it is not broke so we DO NOT need to try to fix it
But IIRC you have no sps or am I off ?
1.00 = NSW
So if thats the case it could mean that Paul can discontinue dosing bleach to the tank. Its already there.
I believe Paul bleaches his collected "ocean" water and then neutralizer the bleach before he use it.
Not that he is dosing his tank with bleach. I asked Paul this once before when somebody insinuated he did.Paul
It is not the Ozone, as has Ozone has a half-live in seawater of only few seconds. It is the Ozone oxidant it produces like "Bromine Bleach" When using GAC it reacts with GAC converting the Bromine bleach, by reducing it, back to Bromide ions, which they were before the addition of the Ozone. Bromine by itself is much more stable that chlorine bleach and is produced much, much more easily than producing chlorine bleach.
I'm not going to tell you to use GAC, it is a choice but does allot more good than harm by along shot. Using GAC when using Ozone is a safety net. Ozone does not really remove anything it just breaks them down in to different things, some good, some bad and some not so good or not so bad, which are then exported by other means. Based on assays from many reef tanks, that use skimmers, filters, GAC or what ever for filtration, about the only ion that is low is Iron. Most all other are over NSW. But these below are using ASW and not NSW like you ( correct), which would give a different set of data.
Paul it is not broke so we DO NOT need to try to fix it
But IIRC you have no sps or am I off ?1.00 = NSW
Aquarist007
New member
nitrate & phosphate then & now at or near 0 algae thrived.
I'd suggest focus on intercepting those nutrients, especially phosphate, before the algae gets it. So exporting more phosphate somehow, and there are many ways. Using GFO media is a fine way, especially for short term use where the cost is not such a factor.
With that in mind, what exactly are you feeding your corals? If feeding frozen food to the fish are you rinsing it first?
RE chaeto in the fuge.
I have trouble understanding how a refugium can double as a frag tank? My refugium is not fit for frags--it has tons of different macro algae --good and bad---but only in the fuge.
Nutrients is only one variable in macro algae growth like chaeto. You have to harvest the cheato regularily by ripping and tearing the ends. This makes the macro algae grow back faster.
Spreading the macro algae out over the surface area helps as does increasing the flow through the refugium
I also run a remote deep sand bed in one of my refugiums---this will help with nitrates.
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Paul B
Premium Member
Boomer is correct, I add bleach to NSW if I take it from the Sound and it looks or smells questionable. Most of the problems in the water from bays and inlets is high bacteria or too much organic matter which go hand in hand anyway. I have not used bleach in years as I like to collect from ocean beaches where the water is cleaner.
I have used bleach in my entire tank twice to sterilize everything and kill paracites. That was when the hobby was new and there were no reef tanks. I got that from Robert Straughn. The bleached water, after it was neutralized seemed perfect and some of that is still in my tank as I have never changed 100% of my water.
I have not added bleach directly to my tank in 39 years.
(You can only do that to sterilize water if no animals are in the tank)
Boomer, thanks for the information as always. I have always used carbon sporatically before a water change and I even used to run it 24/7. Lately the tank has been looking real good, most fish are spawning and I do have three SPS corals for about a year which seem fine and are growing. The LPS corals are not doing as well as the SPS but I have another theory about that. (I have a theory about everything)
I have noticed many times that when the soft corals go into a growth and re producing spurt like they are doing now, the LPS corals suffer.
I can only atribute that to the chemicals the soft corals exude. (theory on my part of course)
I also have found that when the LPS corals thrive like bubble corals, elegance etc, the mushrooms and and other soft corals shrink.
This happens over years and not noticable in many tanks for this reason.
I have noticed this three or four times since this tank was established and it is very noticable.
So Boomer, as per your post, I will again use GAC. I only discontinued it for a couple of months. I do also dose iron occasionally.
My reef is only about 10% NSW because as the older I get the heaver it gets.
I have used bleach in my entire tank twice to sterilize everything and kill paracites. That was when the hobby was new and there were no reef tanks. I got that from Robert Straughn. The bleached water, after it was neutralized seemed perfect and some of that is still in my tank as I have never changed 100% of my water.
I have not added bleach directly to my tank in 39 years.
(You can only do that to sterilize water if no animals are in the tank)
Boomer, thanks for the information as always. I have always used carbon sporatically before a water change and I even used to run it 24/7. Lately the tank has been looking real good, most fish are spawning and I do have three SPS corals for about a year which seem fine and are growing. The LPS corals are not doing as well as the SPS but I have another theory about that. (I have a theory about everything)
I have noticed many times that when the soft corals go into a growth and re producing spurt like they are doing now, the LPS corals suffer.
I can only atribute that to the chemicals the soft corals exude. (theory on my part of course)
I also have found that when the LPS corals thrive like bubble corals, elegance etc, the mushrooms and and other soft corals shrink.
This happens over years and not noticable in many tanks for this reason.
I have noticed this three or four times since this tank was established and it is very noticable.
So Boomer, as per your post, I will again use GAC. I only discontinued it for a couple of months. I do also dose iron occasionally.
My reef is only about 10% NSW because as the older I get the heaver it gets.
"I have trouble understanding how a refugium can double as a frag tank? My refugium is not fit for frags--it has tons o.."
I use an intergrated tank(30g breeder ) for a remote deep sand bed with frags on top of the sand.. I use another tank with a piece of egg crate separator; half chaeto and half frags. Not exactly doubling as a fudge in either case. I also have other bare bottom bins of chaeto. I strongly prefer not to put sand under the macroaglae: too messy and hard to clean for me.
I use an intergrated tank(30g breeder ) for a remote deep sand bed with frags on top of the sand.. I use another tank with a piece of egg crate separator; half chaeto and half frags. Not exactly doubling as a fudge in either case. I also have other bare bottom bins of chaeto. I strongly prefer not to put sand under the macroaglae: too messy and hard to clean for me.
fullmonti
now is the time
question for Paul B
question for Paul B
Could you give some more specs on your algae trough, depth, flow, placement (in or out of tank), lighting ect.
And what is the difference/significance of growing algae in that manner as opposed to other ways? Is this any thing like a algae scrubber?
& how are you guys quoting just one line from another post?
question for Paul B
Could you give some more specs on your algae trough, depth, flow, placement (in or out of tank), lighting ect.
And what is the difference/significance of growing algae in that manner as opposed to other ways? Is this any thing like a algae scrubber?
& how are you guys quoting just one line from another post?
As to the last question, just copy the text manually and paste it between bold brackets.
So at the start type
then paste the line
then type the same bracket with a / in front of the B.
It is much cleaner when you have a lot to respond to.
So at the start type
then paste the line
then type the same bracket with a / in front of the B.
It is much cleaner when you have a lot to respond to.
Paul B
Premium Member
The thing is a Home Depot PVC 4X4" fence post sliced in half to give me a trough. It is set on a slight angle above the water with the return end just touching the water surface. It is to the rear of the tank and is lit from "waste" light that would have just gone to light the back of the tank. I want to keep this area dark anyway. Water enters on the higher end and travels about 5' to the opposite end where it flows back into the tank. There is a plastic window screen the entire length which is infused with cement. Algae loves cement and it makes it easier for the algae to take hold, the screen can be rolled up and removed if cleaning is necessary. The water is less than 1/2" deep and about 5" away from the MH lights. The trough is fed from the outflow of my skimmer so it uses no power.
The only difference between this and an algae scrubber is that it works in the tank with water that was going into the tank anyway and lighting that was "extra"
The thing costs less than $10.00
Paul B
Premium Member
Boomer, here is the results from my last (and only) professional test
A member on here works for a testing company and was nice enough to do it for free. They wanted to see what 40 year old water looks like.
Because of this, I do add Luguls
Analysis Atomic Symbol Units
(ppm) Acceptable Range
(Assumes Corals) Natural Seawater Value Your
Sample Results
Aluminum Al mg/L <0.2 0.001 <0.02
Arsenic As mg/L 0.0023 - 0.0037 0.002 0.07
Barium Ba mg/L 0.01 -0.03 0.015 0.040
Boron B mg/L 3 - 15 4.4 1.76
Calcium Ca mg/L 350 - 422 418 516
Cadmium Cd mg/L <0.0003 0.000114 <0.0003
Cobalt Co mg/L 0 - 0.002 0.0000068 0.0023
Chromium Cr mg/L <0.05 0.0001– 0.0005 <0.05
Copper Cu mg/L 0 - 0.01 0.000212 <0.05
Iron Fe mg/L <0.1 0.00014 - 0.045 0.05
Potassium K mg/L 380 - 500 399 468
Magnesium Mg mg/L 1200 - 1350 1280 1320
Manganese Mn mg/L 0.000275 - .05 0.000275 - .002 <0.001
Molybdenum Mo mg/L 0.008 - 0.01 0.01 0.015
Sodium Na mg/L 10800 10800 9390
Scandium Sc mg/L <0.005 0.000001 <0.005
Nickel Ni mg/L 0.000633 - 0.01 0.000633 <0.01
Lead Pb mg/L 0.000002 - .001 0.000035 0.006
Lithium Li mg/L 0.15 - 0.3 0.178 0.02
Selenium Se mg/L 0.0000085 - 0.15 0.000085 <0.1
Silicon Si mg/L <5.5 2.8 0.26
Strontium Sr mg/L 7.7 - 13 7.7 - 13 6.38
Sulfur S mg/L 30 - 930 904 861
Titanium Ti mg/L 0.0000009 - 0.003 0.000014 <0.01
Uranium U mg/L 0.0025 - 0.005 0.0032 0.0010
Vanadium V mg/L 0.003 - 0.02 0.0012 - 0.002 <0.003
Zinc Zn mg/L 0.000529 - .01 0.000529 <0.1
Bromide Br 60 - 75 66 78
Chloride Cl 1500 - 19345 19345 20000
Fluoride F 0.5 - 1.5 1 0.24
Sulphate SO4 <2701 2701 2600
Sample Temperature For Remaining Analysis: 73.7F
Analysis Acceptable Status Results
Iodide mg/L 0.02 to 0.04 Reef Low 0.002
Iodine/Iodate mg/L Reef Low 0.00
Ammonia mg/L 0 (below surface) Normal - Client will see 0 <0.15
Alkalinity Total dKH 8 - 13 dKH Good 11.462
Alkalinity Borate dKH Good 2.236
Alkalinity Carbonate dKH 8 - 9dKh Good 9.225
Nitrate mg/L 0.1 - 2.5 Reef High 5
Nitrite mg/L 0 Good 0
Phosphate mg/L 0.07 High 0.2
Silicate mg/L 0.02 High 0.5
Salinity ppt S=35 Perfect 35
Specific Gravity 1.025 - 1.026 Perfect
A member on here works for a testing company and was nice enough to do it for free. They wanted to see what 40 year old water looks like.
Because of this, I do add Luguls
Analysis Atomic Symbol Units
(ppm) Acceptable Range
(Assumes Corals) Natural Seawater Value Your
Sample Results
Aluminum Al mg/L <0.2 0.001 <0.02
Arsenic As mg/L 0.0023 - 0.0037 0.002 0.07
Barium Ba mg/L 0.01 -0.03 0.015 0.040
Boron B mg/L 3 - 15 4.4 1.76
Calcium Ca mg/L 350 - 422 418 516
Cadmium Cd mg/L <0.0003 0.000114 <0.0003
Cobalt Co mg/L 0 - 0.002 0.0000068 0.0023
Chromium Cr mg/L <0.05 0.0001– 0.0005 <0.05
Copper Cu mg/L 0 - 0.01 0.000212 <0.05
Iron Fe mg/L <0.1 0.00014 - 0.045 0.05
Potassium K mg/L 380 - 500 399 468
Magnesium Mg mg/L 1200 - 1350 1280 1320
Manganese Mn mg/L 0.000275 - .05 0.000275 - .002 <0.001
Molybdenum Mo mg/L 0.008 - 0.01 0.01 0.015
Sodium Na mg/L 10800 10800 9390
Scandium Sc mg/L <0.005 0.000001 <0.005
Nickel Ni mg/L 0.000633 - 0.01 0.000633 <0.01
Lead Pb mg/L 0.000002 - .001 0.000035 0.006
Lithium Li mg/L 0.15 - 0.3 0.178 0.02
Selenium Se mg/L 0.0000085 - 0.15 0.000085 <0.1
Silicon Si mg/L <5.5 2.8 0.26
Strontium Sr mg/L 7.7 - 13 7.7 - 13 6.38
Sulfur S mg/L 30 - 930 904 861
Titanium Ti mg/L 0.0000009 - 0.003 0.000014 <0.01
Uranium U mg/L 0.0025 - 0.005 0.0032 0.0010
Vanadium V mg/L 0.003 - 0.02 0.0012 - 0.002 <0.003
Zinc Zn mg/L 0.000529 - .01 0.000529 <0.1
Bromide Br 60 - 75 66 78
Chloride Cl 1500 - 19345 19345 20000
Fluoride F 0.5 - 1.5 1 0.24
Sulphate SO4 <2701 2701 2600
Sample Temperature For Remaining Analysis: 73.7F
Analysis Acceptable Status Results
Iodide mg/L 0.02 to 0.04 Reef Low 0.002
Iodine/Iodate mg/L Reef Low 0.00
Ammonia mg/L 0 (below surface) Normal - Client will see 0 <0.15
Alkalinity Total dKH 8 - 13 dKH Good 11.462
Alkalinity Borate dKH Good 2.236
Alkalinity Carbonate dKH 8 - 9dKh Good 9.225
Nitrate mg/L 0.1 - 2.5 Reef High 5
Nitrite mg/L 0 Good 0
Phosphate mg/L 0.07 High 0.2
Silicate mg/L 0.02 High 0.5
Salinity ppt S=35 Perfect 35
Specific Gravity 1.025 - 1.026 Perfect
Paul:
Can you say what lab provided that info? If it is reliable, some of the results are interesting. Depleted lithium and boron, and elevated potassium, for example.
Also note that they did not detect any copper at their limit of detection (relevant to another thread).
Can you say what lab provided that info? If it is reliable, some of the results are interesting. Depleted lithium and boron, and elevated potassium, for example.
Also note that they did not detect any copper at their limit of detection (relevant to another thread).
Paul
First, as far as I goes we only care about Iodate. I'm sure you are low in I due to the algae. Most reef tanks or sps types are way to high in I. I'm a little perplexed by the deplete Li as Randy is, although there are ample amounts in hard coral skeletons. However, must reef tanks are rather high. I think Boron can be depleted rather easily in tanks.
I only go by this now for NSW
http://www.mbari.org/chemsensor/pteo.htm
First, as far as I goes we only care about Iodate. I'm sure you are low in I due to the algae. Most reef tanks or sps types are way to high in I. I'm a little perplexed by the deplete Li as Randy is, although there are ample amounts in hard coral skeletons. However, must reef tanks are rather high. I think Boron can be depleted rather easily in tanks.
I only go by this now for NSW
http://www.mbari.org/chemsensor/pteo.htm
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Maybe I'm reading his report wrong but it looks to me like it says potassium range that is OK is 380-500 (no idea how they got that), that NSW is 399, and his is 468.
Not a big elevation (17%), but it continues to build the case that potassium depletion is not as common as many people seem to assert.
Not a big elevation (17%), but it continues to build the case that potassium depletion is not as common as many people seem to assert.
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