Par 38 LED spotlights
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JTL
New member
I would say six, but if you use 60 degree optics and can accept some loss of par than 4 or 5. The way the pricing is set you can basically get 5 for the same price as 4 so I would do that. With 5 you may be able to get by with the standard 40 degree optics, but not with 4 lamps. I think you would be happy with a mix of 12k and 20k. They tend to be more toward the blue spectrum so if you get 5 I would go for 3-12k and 2-20k otherwise just go 50/50. Even all 12K it is still blueish. Take a look at my pic which is 50/50 and 8 lamps on a 2'x4'x2' tank. Then look at Beekers pictures of all 12k lamps, that will give you an idea. One thing to keep in mind is that the pics tend to greatly exaggerate the white and over power the blue. In real life the light is not nearly as bright white, especially when you look directly at the lights.
I would also recommend six 40-degree bulbs, if it were me that is exactly what I would do. I think what JTL was trying to say about the bulk pricing is that if you order five or more bulbs, they are $100 each. Color is completely personal preference, I don't really feel that the appearance of led's is as different from halides as everyone makes it seem.
I'll have an update in the next day or two
My large elegance aftrer 3+ weeks in the tank decided to die within 5 days about a week ago, i still have no clue what caused it's demise but i'm sad none the less that i lost something that was perfect looking for 3+ weeks in my system (although my other 2 elegance are doing fine, go figure)
So far the leds are performing well, i've only have a few issue's with some sps STNing/RTNing due to the tank still being new
out of the 15 pieces of sps placed in the tank 3 STNed/RTNed 4 have lost some of their color/ dulled up or browned out, but so far the rest of the sps look as good as ever
I'm trying to get a set of 4 custom bulbs made with 4 cool blue's 470nm and 1 neutral white led in them, to see if this improves color, although i have no clue when i will finally get the bulbs
So far there is no color shift or change in any of my LPS/Acan's/Zoa's or chalice's and new growth seems to be starting off well
I'll try to get some pics tonight and have them up tomorrow, if not thursday at the latest, i know it's been awhile since i've gotten any pics but i'm still transfering over stuff from my 29g to the 200g so the 200g kindof looks in a state of chaos right now with corals laying all over the place, lol
My large elegance aftrer 3+ weeks in the tank decided to die within 5 days about a week ago, i still have no clue what caused it's demise but i'm sad none the less that i lost something that was perfect looking for 3+ weeks in my system (although my other 2 elegance are doing fine, go figure)
So far the leds are performing well, i've only have a few issue's with some sps STNing/RTNing due to the tank still being new
out of the 15 pieces of sps placed in the tank 3 STNed/RTNed 4 have lost some of their color/ dulled up or browned out, but so far the rest of the sps look as good as ever
I'm trying to get a set of 4 custom bulbs made with 4 cool blue's 470nm and 1 neutral white led in them, to see if this improves color, although i have no clue when i will finally get the bulbs
So far there is no color shift or change in any of my LPS/Acan's/Zoa's or chalice's and new growth seems to be starting off well
I'll try to get some pics tonight and have them up tomorrow, if not thursday at the latest, i know it's been awhile since i've gotten any pics but i'm still transfering over stuff from my 29g to the 200g so the 200g kindof looks in a state of chaos right now with corals laying all over the place, lol
agsansoo
Premium Member
JTL, I know you really like these lights, I'm just not sold yet. Until I see growth from these, they won't be mounted on my DT. As for color and coloring up certain corals they are hit or miss for me.
#1) Red Planet. Totally lost color under these lights. Moved back to DT were it is regaining it red color back.
#2) Green table acro. The mother coral loves high light and high current. This coral lost all color and was near death until I moved it back into my DT.
#3) Green millie with red tips. Color remains good, though it has zero growth so far. It's sister coral in my DT continues to sprout new branches under my 250w MH, with dull color.
#4) Acan. Moved to DT after looking shriveled up for days under par38 lights. It looks way happier on the bottom of my DT. (more nutrients I'm sure ...LOL)
The other frags are cali-torts. These continue to get better blue color. Again no growth so far.
So the main plan with these lights for me was to color up frags for resale at my local reef club. So far this is 50/50 depending on the coral. Will try different coral frags this week.
AGANSOO
What optics and what color did you go with?
with 40 optics i have my lights mounted 33 inches away from the bottom of the tank, even with that distance away in the center position of the bulb i was still getting a PAR between 150-190 on the very bottom glass that is enough for some Sps and monti's and more than enough for LPS/Acan's/Chalice and Zoa's
So maybe you might be giving them too much light, even with 60 optics, 25 inches away would still be more than adequate PAR IMO
where my red planet acro is it's getting a PAR of 400, it lost it's green base but is growing and still has red polyps
As for photoperiod i only run my lights 7 hours a day so far
i'll have pics up tomorrow or thursday
What optics and what color did you go with?
with 40 optics i have my lights mounted 33 inches away from the bottom of the tank, even with that distance away in the center position of the bulb i was still getting a PAR between 150-190 on the very bottom glass that is enough for some Sps and monti's and more than enough for LPS/Acan's/Chalice and Zoa's
So maybe you might be giving them too much light, even with 60 optics, 25 inches away would still be more than adequate PAR IMO
where my red planet acro is it's getting a PAR of 400, it lost it's green base but is growing and still has red polyps
As for photoperiod i only run my lights 7 hours a day so far
i'll have pics up tomorrow or thursday
agsansoo
Premium Member
Beeker,
I have 80 deg. optics at 8" from water. Water depth is 5 inches. I really need a par meter to determine the height of the bulb. I think those sps's suffered from lack of light. Both the red planet and the green table corals need about 400w of MH to grow and color well. This light can't do that.
I'm going to replace the optics to 40 or 60 deg. and see what that does.
I have 80 deg. optics at 8" from water. Water depth is 5 inches. I really need a par meter to determine the height of the bulb. I think those sps's suffered from lack of light. Both the red planet and the green table corals need about 400w of MH to grow and color well. This light can't do that.
I'm going to replace the optics to 40 or 60 deg. and see what that does.
Last edited:
JTL
New member
Agsansoo,
Yes I do really like these lights but admittedly I cannot attest to the most important aspect, that being how the corals like them. I put several frags of sps in my tank about 10 days ago, including a red planet. I have been out of town but my wife says everything is looking good. She has been moving them up from the bottom gradually and they are now about mid tank. I will ask her specifically how the red planet looks and the distance from the lights. I have a duncan that is growing and my clam likes them. I also have several new zoa frags. Just about everyone knows more than me about lighting and corals because I am new to the hobby. I do think it is going to take some experimentation to find the sweet spot under these lights. The height/optics and distance from the center beam are obviously variables that need to be considered. Halides and T5's have less variation and more is known about wattage and color. My hope is that those of use with the 38's can continue to share what works and what doesn't. John
Yes I do really like these lights but admittedly I cannot attest to the most important aspect, that being how the corals like them. I put several frags of sps in my tank about 10 days ago, including a red planet. I have been out of town but my wife says everything is looking good. She has been moving them up from the bottom gradually and they are now about mid tank. I will ask her specifically how the red planet looks and the distance from the lights. I have a duncan that is growing and my clam likes them. I also have several new zoa frags. Just about everyone knows more than me about lighting and corals because I am new to the hobby. I do think it is going to take some experimentation to find the sweet spot under these lights. The height/optics and distance from the center beam are obviously variables that need to be considered. Halides and T5's have less variation and more is known about wattage and color. My hope is that those of use with the 38's can continue to share what works and what doesn't. John
I've heard from people on here who keep Red Planet colonies that the color is dependent on how much light it's getting. What I was told is that low light and slow growth=green, high light and fast growth=white. I don't have much experience with SPS though, so that's just word of mouth.
agansoo, if the tank is only 5 inches deep i'm sure your giving them more light than needed
at 33 inches away from the bulb and 7 inches away from center of a 40 degree optic bulb i was getting a PAR of 33
6 inches off center i was getting a PAR of 60 and it increase's about 30 PAR every inch closer you get to the center of the bulb
a PAR from 50-100 can grow chalice, LPS, Acan's and Zoa's
a PAR of 150+ is needed for anything else, Clams and Sps
So with an 80 degree bulb 13 inches off the bottom of the tank i'm sure your PAR would still be high, i'd raise the bulb to about another 5-7 inches off the tank and see if that doesen't help some
at 33 inches away from the bulb and 7 inches away from center of a 40 degree optic bulb i was getting a PAR of 33
6 inches off center i was getting a PAR of 60 and it increase's about 30 PAR every inch closer you get to the center of the bulb
a PAR from 50-100 can grow chalice, LPS, Acan's and Zoa's
a PAR of 150+ is needed for anything else, Clams and Sps
So with an 80 degree bulb 13 inches off the bottom of the tank i'm sure your PAR would still be high, i'd raise the bulb to about another 5-7 inches off the tank and see if that doesen't help some
agsansoo
Premium Member
beeker, without a par meter I'm shooting in the dark. Like JTL said, there's a sweet spot you have to find with these lights. There's no question the cali-tort colors are the best I've had with this light, dark blue with the a green base. Last night I placed a ora blue millie under these lights. I will post before and after photos in a few weeks. I also will take your recommendation and raise the bulb higher.
All my sps get 300-800 par from my mh's. I have 4 of the 80 optic par38's on a 16 x 16" shallow tank similiar to agansoo's. Here are the par #'s:
Bulbs are 8" above the water
Frag rack is 5.5" below the water
Water's surface- 430
sensor on the rack- 230
The values are within about 50 as you move away from the bulb and with this setup each bulb will light an 8 x 8" area.
Bulbs are 8" above the water
Frag rack is 5.5" below the water
Water's surface- 430
sensor on the rack- 230
The values are within about 50 as you move away from the bulb and with this setup each bulb will light an 8 x 8" area.
agsansoo
Premium Member
Thanks ksc. Great info. That's about the numbers I was guessing. Maybe with 60 deg. optics I could increase the par for sps's. The higher par will increase growth. I also placed a red monti-cap under these lights. With MH the monti-caps gets white growth along the edges very quickly if the par is good. These lights, no growth yet.
I really want these bulbs to work for me. My electric bill is too high in the summer and I'm tired of trying to find the right ballast /MH bulb combo / heat issues with MH lighting.
I really want these bulbs to work for me. My electric bill is too high in the summer and I'm tired of trying to find the right ballast /MH bulb combo / heat issues with MH lighting.
Uncle Salty 05
New member
It said on their site that if you use them in a fan cooled enclosure it invalidates the warranty. If they give off less heat than MH's why can't they be enclosed?
I personally would not want several of these things glaring at me from across the room.
I personally would not want several of these things glaring at me from across the room.
They don't bleed a lot of light out of the tank like halides do, if that's what you're talking about. My 40 degree bulbs are around 18" off the water and mounted on the wall, so they're angled at me slightly, and it doesn't bother me at all. My halide, on the other hand, would light up my whole room.
JTL
New member
This is from evilc66 who gets credit for introducing this lamp.
The basics about the lamp:
21W power draw - This is including the losses in the driver and the power supply. It does not mean that the LEDs are running at 5.2W each. This is just silly.
Each LED is running at 950mA - This works out to 3.5W per LED. No, I'm not overdriving the whites. Yes, I am slightly overdriving the blue. Can they take it? Yes, provided that the temperature of the LED is under control, which it is. Even at the elevated currents, we keep our die temperatures much lower than the Cree spec, ensuring long life.
Cree XR-E LEDs - They're good. They work. They won't be changing any time soon. I've had numerous people ask me about why I'm not using XP-Gs. There aren't lens options for them just yet to justify the change. Well, unless you want 40 degrees or tighter.
Worldwide usage - These can be used anywhere in the world where you can find an E26/27 medium base lamp socket. They can operate on 90-240v AC at 50Hz or 60Hz.
LED replacement - Can you replace an LED if it's damaged or you want something different? Sure, but it's a lot more complicated than just swapping out a star pcb. All the LEDs are on a single large pcb, and you would have to use reflow soldering techniques to replace the LEDs. If you are going to do it, go for it. It will void any warranty though.
Lens replacement - Can you replace the lenses with something different? Sure. They are standard Cree lenses that everyone is familiar with, just without the individual lens holders. We offer them in 40, 60, and 80 degree angles, but there are 25 and 8 degree options on the market too. Do so at your own risk though. If you break off the dome on the LED when replacing the lenses, by-by warranty.
Operating characteristics:
This is where the majority of the heated debate comes from.
First, many of us have differing opinions about what usefull PAR actually is in terms of spectral output when it comes to LEDs. This is going to be a growth area for the technology as we learn more about them. All we can do right now is use the tools and the knowledge that we have right now to make educated guesses about the overall usefulness. We aren't going to be arguing about how to correctly measure PAR here. The test numbers are just to be used for reference, not taken as gospel.
Peak PAR on these lamps is high (at least what we know as PAR, and according to the tools we have). Remember, this is the highest measureable PAR values. This is in a very small area. PAR values drop considerably the further off center you get. This is the nature of a spotlight. Typical metal halide setups are flood lights. They create a very large, even are of illumination. Some people are claiming that these lamps can replace 150W/250W/400W MH setups easily. It's not that simple. A 150W MH with a decent reflector can cover a much larger total area than a PAR38 (24"x24 on average, versus about a 14" practical circle with the PAR38s). The PAR38 in the right configuration can achieve much high peak PAR numbers, but the average PAR over the entire coverage area is much lower. To get similar average PAR levels over the same area, many more lamps would have to be used to match a 150W MH. As a result, the power consumption starts getting closer to what a MH would be.
A single PAR38 cannot and will not be a 1:1 replacement for a 150W MH. I'm sure some of you are now thinking that I must have been leading people down the wrong path suggesting that a single PAR38 can light the likes of a BC14. It can do just that, but you have to understand the limitation that you are working with. Using these lamps is a very different way of thinking about lighting a tank. The coverage area of these lamps is rather small in comparison to other lighting technologies, but you can use that to your advantage. For a long time, low, medium and high light has been relegated to bottom, middle, and top of the tank respectively. All you have to do now is change that to center, near center, and far center of the lamp. You can still obtain the different light levels for different corals, but in a different way. Some have claimed that I have told them that you can replace large metal halide setups with these lamps. I have never said that. I have stated that you can create PAR levels similar to metal halide, but have always qualified the statement by saying that you will need to use multiple lamps to get good coverage and still achieve that level of intensity.
Please refer to the PAR plots that I have posted for the different lens angles at different distances. This will give you a better understanding as to what to expect from the lamp.
Coral coloration - This is something that is going to be a talking point for a long time to come. This is an issue more to do with LEDs as a whole and not just the PAR38 lamps. What I will say is that there is a lot more to color coloration that just light. Water parameters, flow, feeding, and proper acclimation are all important to keeping corals vibrant and colorful. I won't argue that there is something missing that is causing some of the corals to lose their vibrance. Unfortunately, it's going to take a while to find out what that is.
The basics about the lamp:
21W power draw - This is including the losses in the driver and the power supply. It does not mean that the LEDs are running at 5.2W each. This is just silly.
Each LED is running at 950mA - This works out to 3.5W per LED. No, I'm not overdriving the whites. Yes, I am slightly overdriving the blue. Can they take it? Yes, provided that the temperature of the LED is under control, which it is. Even at the elevated currents, we keep our die temperatures much lower than the Cree spec, ensuring long life.
Cree XR-E LEDs - They're good. They work. They won't be changing any time soon. I've had numerous people ask me about why I'm not using XP-Gs. There aren't lens options for them just yet to justify the change. Well, unless you want 40 degrees or tighter.
Worldwide usage - These can be used anywhere in the world where you can find an E26/27 medium base lamp socket. They can operate on 90-240v AC at 50Hz or 60Hz.
LED replacement - Can you replace an LED if it's damaged or you want something different? Sure, but it's a lot more complicated than just swapping out a star pcb. All the LEDs are on a single large pcb, and you would have to use reflow soldering techniques to replace the LEDs. If you are going to do it, go for it. It will void any warranty though.
Lens replacement - Can you replace the lenses with something different? Sure. They are standard Cree lenses that everyone is familiar with, just without the individual lens holders. We offer them in 40, 60, and 80 degree angles, but there are 25 and 8 degree options on the market too. Do so at your own risk though. If you break off the dome on the LED when replacing the lenses, by-by warranty.
Operating characteristics:
This is where the majority of the heated debate comes from.
First, many of us have differing opinions about what usefull PAR actually is in terms of spectral output when it comes to LEDs. This is going to be a growth area for the technology as we learn more about them. All we can do right now is use the tools and the knowledge that we have right now to make educated guesses about the overall usefulness. We aren't going to be arguing about how to correctly measure PAR here. The test numbers are just to be used for reference, not taken as gospel.
Peak PAR on these lamps is high (at least what we know as PAR, and according to the tools we have). Remember, this is the highest measureable PAR values. This is in a very small area. PAR values drop considerably the further off center you get. This is the nature of a spotlight. Typical metal halide setups are flood lights. They create a very large, even are of illumination. Some people are claiming that these lamps can replace 150W/250W/400W MH setups easily. It's not that simple. A 150W MH with a decent reflector can cover a much larger total area than a PAR38 (24"x24 on average, versus about a 14" practical circle with the PAR38s). The PAR38 in the right configuration can achieve much high peak PAR numbers, but the average PAR over the entire coverage area is much lower. To get similar average PAR levels over the same area, many more lamps would have to be used to match a 150W MH. As a result, the power consumption starts getting closer to what a MH would be.
A single PAR38 cannot and will not be a 1:1 replacement for a 150W MH. I'm sure some of you are now thinking that I must have been leading people down the wrong path suggesting that a single PAR38 can light the likes of a BC14. It can do just that, but you have to understand the limitation that you are working with. Using these lamps is a very different way of thinking about lighting a tank. The coverage area of these lamps is rather small in comparison to other lighting technologies, but you can use that to your advantage. For a long time, low, medium and high light has been relegated to bottom, middle, and top of the tank respectively. All you have to do now is change that to center, near center, and far center of the lamp. You can still obtain the different light levels for different corals, but in a different way. Some have claimed that I have told them that you can replace large metal halide setups with these lamps. I have never said that. I have stated that you can create PAR levels similar to metal halide, but have always qualified the statement by saying that you will need to use multiple lamps to get good coverage and still achieve that level of intensity.
Please refer to the PAR plots that I have posted for the different lens angles at different distances. This will give you a better understanding as to what to expect from the lamp.
Coral coloration - This is something that is going to be a talking point for a long time to come. This is an issue more to do with LEDs as a whole and not just the PAR38 lamps. What I will say is that there is a lot more to color coloration that just light. Water parameters, flow, feeding, and proper acclimation are all important to keeping corals vibrant and colorful. I won't argue that there is something missing that is causing some of the corals to lose their vibrance. Unfortunately, it's going to take a while to find out what that is.
JTL
New member
80's at 14", that is correct. 60's would be more like 350 and 40's might hit 450-500. These are for the sweet spot which naturally shrinks as you decrease the optics. This all based on Par readings the evilc66 took a while back. Assuming of course that I am reading the charts correctly. I am convinced these lights can put out the necessary par but not using 80 degree optics.
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