Pedal laceration in Gigantea

[beuchat]

Hi guys,

Today's videos of the s. gigantea back in DT after 24 hours reintroduction . Also you can see the s. hadonni present already in the tank. Both of them look inflated and healty, sorry for the low quality (I needed to reduce the size of the files).

Maybe I won the battle? :spin1:


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I hope they will continue like this! . I am slowly getting crazy taking care of my anemone with bipolar disorder.... :wildone:

 

[deangelr]

I hope so too Beuchat! for your sake haha

 

[deangelr]

Is enroflaxin as effective as chloramfenicol? Seems like this stuff would be helpfull for us dedicated anemone keepers

 

[Winwood]

Man I have been follwing this thread from the beginning and am in utter amazement! Recently I tried to rescue an ailing gigantea using similar methods but was unable to obtain a sufficient amount of Baytril. I was able to retrieve a tiny amont from a friend who had some left over from when he had to treat some of his birds. I used this in the initial treatment which yielded similar results to what both of you have documented. However, I was unable to retreat the specimen after the first water change and the anemone recessed and eventually passed.

My question is two fold;
1. Is there more commonly available antibiotics that may produce similar results? and
2. How does someone obtain baytril from a veterenarian or other source without first injecting their dog or cat with a terrible bacterial infection? I called 5 vet offices and none of them would sell me the product despite a lengthy and detailed explanation of what I was using it for.

 

[OrionN]

Baytril is a floroquinolne that only use in pets here in the US. Similar medications that use in human is Cipro (used a lot in chicken feed). Use a floroquinolone for human from your doctor would be OK I think.

 

[5Starreef]

I was in a animal clinic with pictures of healthy anemones. I saw the doctor a picture of my one and I explained to him what I want it to do, and he sold me two tablets without any problems.

 

[OrionN]

Hi guys,

Today's videos of the s. gigantea back in DT after 24 hours reintroduction . Also you can see the s. hadonni present already in the tank. Both of them look inflated and healty, sorry for the low quality (I needed to reduce the size of the files).

Maybe I won the battle? :spin1:

.....
I hope they will continue like this! . I am slowly getting crazy taking care of my anemone with bipolar disorder.... :wildone:

I would not consider the Giantea as "healthy" Maybe he is better than before but certainly not out of the wood yet. Good luck with him

 

[jeffreylesser]

Is enroflaxin as effective as chloramfenicol? Seems like this stuff would be helpfull for us dedicated anemone keepers

I think a successful Enrofloxacin regimen has yet to be determined. Use of Chloramfenicol does not come without serious risks, both physical and legal for those of us in the United States. Enrofloxacin does not come without risk either. Here is the warning for humans in regards to the use of enrofloxacin:

"Avoid contact with eyes. In case of contact, immediately flush eyes with copious amounts of water for 15 minutes. In case of dermal contact, wash skin with soap and water. Consult a physician if irritation persists following ocular or dermal exposure. Individuals with a history of hypersensitivity to quinolones should avoid this product. In humans, there is a risk of user photosensitization within a few hours after excessive exposure to quinolones. If excessive accidental exposure occurs, avoid direct sunlight."

To be honest we have yet to see long term success with either medication for a Gigantea. The problem that seems to come up again and again is how to successfully take the anemone off the medication and re-introduce it to a normal tank environment. The OP has an earlier thread about using some of these medications (I believe both) on a Magnifica and I believe this anemone is still alive. Interestingly I believe this animal was treated twice, and failed to reintroduce itself successfully into a reef environment after the first round of treatment.

The medication I purchased(enrofloxacin) was used to treat two anemones (one was not mine) and both animals did not make it.

And yes I myself did find it difficult to find a veterinarian to prescribe medication. My recommendation would be to search for an exotic animal vet, or a vet that specializes in fish (koi). Probably easier in some locales than others.

 

[beuchat]

To be honest we have yet to see long term success with either medication for a Gigantea. The problem that seems to come up again and again is how to successfully take the anemone off the medication and re-introduce it to a normal tank environment.

I agree,

And bad news. The gig is again deflated!, I am tired...

 

[OrionN]

To be honest we have yet to see long term success with either medication for a Gigantea. The problem that seems to come up again and again is how to successfully take the anemone off the medication and re-introduce it to a normal tank environment.

I agree,

And bad news. The gig is again deflated!, I am tired...

I would set up full quarantine with light and everything. Keep him in there for at least a week. One day of medication is not going to help a whole lot. Once he continue to be inflated and maybe eating, then take him out of quarantine. IMO, you put him back to DT too quickly before he is fully treated.
FWIW, as Gigantea or any other anemone dying, they look good some of the time. The time when they looking good get less and less then they never expand again. Just because they are fully expanded for 12 or more hrs does not mean that they are cure and healthy.

 

[beuchat]

This is a very interesting and exciting story but also "deflates" myself...

I will switch off the LEDs over him , if he does not recover a bit in one or two days them I will transfer him again to QT.

If we could recover him again in QT them we will have to think in:

1- A way to return to DT.
2- Maybe remove the hadonni for some time?

:sad2:

 

[beuchat]

Hi

5starreef contacted with me and reported that his gigantea is doing better in DT without light. I set the bluemoon in my KR-92 leds and mine is inflating a bit more. Yesterday went for travel and I left him without direct light (only small comming from the other KR-92 module)

I read some articles like this one:

http://aem.asm.org/cgi/reprint/70/11/6855.

were is explained that the bacteria attacks the zooxhantellae of the host. So I thoght:

- When shipped the infection is developed into the anemona.
- The bacteria attacks the zooxanthellae.
- The anemone opens the mouth in order to get rid of rotten ingested food (the source of bacteria)
- The zooxanthelae infected can not process the photoshynthesis and other processes that interact with the anemone, so light, at this stage, is causing the anemone not to feel good, so it deflates.

-The first time I returned my mag to DT he was releasen a "green water flow" from his mouth:

Hi, the battle is not still won... :sad1:

He deflated really quick today, was throwing away a lot of "smoke" through his moth.During the water evacuation:

Later:

I will wait. If tomorrow is still deflated I will return to QT with antibiotic and start again... :sad2:

-Maybe this green water was water with dead or live zooxhantellae that were released when the nem got in contact with the strong DT lights. He suffered a "light shock" after the infection.

- The gig was cured during the first days in Qt with antibiotics but deflated when returned in DT for excess of light, so I was returning him to QT thinking in the the pathogen, when the infection was halted and the nem only needed a light reacclimatation.

I will report how I find him tomorrow when come back home. He will have stayed for 48 hours without lights.

 

[bradleym]

Update? Did the light reacclimation seem to help or is it in for anotther round of meds?

 

[beuchat]

Yes, I think it helped for him not to deflate again. The anemone is not still fully inflated although there is a clear trend to improve. I will post some pics tonight. Yesterday he was 30-40% inflated.

 

[this is me]

This anemone is a fighter!

 

[beuchat]

Hi,

Updated with some photos taken just 1 min ago.

He is slowly inflating more and more every day. Photoperiod is

8:00-10:00 AM Blue LEDs
10:00 AM to 22:00 Daylight LEDs
22:00 PM to 24:00 PM Blue LEDs
24:00 PM to 8:00 PM Blue Moon LEDs

I hope he does not need more treatment or anything, I will just let him rest and enjoy the current. :bounce3::bounce3::bounce3:

 

[phender]

......Enrofloxacin does not come without risk either. ........

Just to reiterate, Enrofloxacin (aka Baytril) is pretty nasty stuff. Most vets only use it for particularly mean infections and don't use at all for puppies or kittens. It is not used at all on people because for some reason (I'm not a pharmacist), it is Toxic to humans. Please take this into consideration when putting you hands into the tank and such.

I also read that it is only slightly soluble, so I don't know how much good putting in the water would do. In addition it may bind with Mg and Ca ions which prevents absorption.
http://wildlife1.wildlifeinformation.org/s/00chem/chcomplex/Enrofloxacin.htm

 

[jeffreylesser]

Good information, I don't think I found this page in my google searches.

Just to reiterate, Enrofloxacin (aka Baytril) is pretty nasty stuff. Most vets only use it for particularly mean infections and don't use at all for puppies or kittens. It is not used at all on people because for some reason (I'm not a pharmacist), it is Toxic to humans. Please take this into consideration when putting you hands into the tank and such.

It says this at the bottom of the page:

"Hallucinations, vivid dreams and headache may occur if enrofloxacin is given to humans."

The Hallucinations and vivid dreams seems to fall in line with photo-sensitivity information I had. Photo-sensitivity sounds like something the manufacturer of the drug would say.

I also read that it is only slightly soluble, so I don't know how much good putting in the water would do. In addition it may bind with Mg and Ca ions which prevents absorption.
http://wildlife1.wildlifeinformation.org/s/00chem/chcomplex/Enrofloxacin.htm

I am not sure about the Mg and Ca Ions, but the medication I used was injectible so soulbility is not an issue in that case. It has been tested on koi, where some of the test groups were given the antibiotic as an injection, and some in a bath. But you may be right, how much Ca and Mg is in freshwater for koi? 0?

With all of that said, I am not sure if enrofloxacin worked or not in my case. I would however say the anemone being treated with chloramphenicol at least shows some signs that the antibiotic has an affect. I have seen many Giganteas die in acclimation from myself, others, LFS, etc... and I have never seen one go through these fits for this long. It is a fighter for sure.

 

[phender]

Did either of you try doxycycline? It has been a while, but there was a thread where somebody was using it successfully for either H. magnifica or giganteas. I don't remember which and the search function didn't turn up any threads for me.

I certainly appreciate the efforts that you guys are going through to try and further our understanding of a very difficult anemone species.

 

[beuchat]

Did either of you try doxycycline? It has been a while, but there was a thread where somebody was using it successfully for either H. magnifica or giganteas. I don't remember which and the search function didn't turn up any threads for me.

No, I have not tried but I think it belongs to the same family of antibiotics

I have reduced the photoperiod to:

10:00 to 15:00 blue LEDs
15:00 to 21:00 daylight LEDs
21:00 to 02:00 blue LEDs
02:00 to 10:00 bluemoon

The anemone is not still completely inflated but he is looking better each day.