people who go with "almost" no Water Changes needed!

Randy, I read a paper long ago that stated that ASW had elevated levels of heavy metals and trace elements. They wear way up there in most salt mixes,like 200 times NSW. Is that true? If so I would think that less water changes would be better because It would give the skimmer/algae time to remove some of that and bring it down closer to NSW levels?
 
What I meant was that in artificial seawater without any living creatures or substantial organics in it, copper is seemingly more toxic than the same concentration of copper added into used aquarium water, where there are more organics present to bind the copper. Ron Shimek fond this in his studies. It surprised him, but many of us chemists told him in advance that it would happen. :D

Randy, I read a paper long ago that stated that ASW had elevated levels of heavy metals and trace elements. They wear way up there in most salt mixes,like 200 times NSW. Is that true? If so I would think that less water changes would be better because It would give the skimmer/algae time to remove some of that and bring it down closer to NSW levels?

That's the Ron Shimek mantra. In part it is true, and part not. Copper in my tank, for example, was always higher than the IO that he blasted for having too much copper. So every water change lowered it, and the dominating source must have been foods or other additives.
 
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Oh, thank God you explained that. I almost thought I would have to go to college to understand it. I don't believe it, but I don't believe or understand a lot of things in this hobby. Why I went bald for instance. Ron Shimek also wrote that old tanks can't possibly exist because of metal accumulation and we all know how that worked out.
He theorized that Old Tank Syndrome was possibly caused by accumulated metals.
My tank throws a :mtool: into that theory.
But I am glad you are a chemist Randy to explain these things to us lug wrenches who didn't go to college. :wavehand:
 
good information :) Hey randy I have a quick question, every time I do a water change using any kind of ASW, my water gets a slight cloud to it that lasts for about 3-6 hours,no mater how long it has been mixed prior. What do you think causes that?
 
I think people unwilling to do water changes are also not going to be willing to put the work in that would be required to maintain a system and all of its parameters going without.

Lets see Thursday I turn on the RO unit and let a bit drain into the sink until the TDS meter is 0. total time 3 minutes I timed it just for this thread. turn the bypass valve to the sink off. Turn the valve to the 40 gallon holding tank on. Come back Friday transfer water from holding tank 1 to holding tank 2 where salt is mixed. 6 minutes (I'm 9 minutes into this) Add 1 bag of salt (this will put me at 1.025) change the valve over that pumps from holding tank 1 to holding tank 2 this recirculates the water in holding tank 2 from bottom to to top (two more minutes and I am being generous, 11 minutes in so far). turn the heater on in holding tank 2. Come back Saturday.

Check temp salinity 30 seconds? look at temp display use a pipette to grab water for the refractor. Yup it 1.025 just like always. Let the water that is coming from my tank fill the empty holding tank 1 while I empty holding tank 2 into the system (6 more minutes) I am now at 17.5 minutes and I have changed 40 gallons of water. I have a huge system so I do this once a week.

We're talking less than 20 minutes a week to maintain a 1000 gallon system. Now it is a hobby and some folks like to spend a lot more time under the hood than I do so maybe those 20 minutes are not enough. So by all means if you would rather test every parameter and adjust them to the correct levels to avoid a 20 minute water change more power to ya.
 
spamreefnew said:
good information :) Hey randy I have a quick question, every time I do a water change using any kind of ASW, my water gets a slight cloud to it that lasts for about 3-6 hours,no mater how long it has been mixed prior. What do you think causes that?
Click to expand...

Are you kicking up debris when you add the new water?
 
Hello Randy and Paul,

I am in the process of adding a 120g tank to my 130g system. Currently, I change at least 20% of the water every two weeks just because I always thought I was doing the right thing. Ozone, vodka dosing, and more automated water changes are three things I have been pondering as possible next steps for me in this hobby. I have been saving up for very large water tanks for WCs, but am now rethinking if I should spend the money.

What knowledge is needed to go down this path of fewer water changes? What are the parameters, and how do we get there? Also, for people who use ozone, is vodka dosing something that compliments ozone use or is counter productive to ozone use? And why do we use carbon as a material to break up residual ozone? I have read that the reason we need to change the carbon is that the ozone changes the shape of the carbon over time and that the carbon then stops breaking up the residual ozone.
 
Also, for people who use ozone, is vodka dosing something that compliments ozone use or is counter productive to ozone use?

IMO, those are unrelated issues.

And why do we use carbon as a material to break up residual ozone?

Paul will undoubtedly say he doesn't and we needn't bother. But as to why, ozone lands on the GAC surface and breaks apart very effectively. Same for other highly oxidizing species formed by ozone reacting with seawater.

I discuss those issues here:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-04/rhf/index.php#15 for ozone in air
and
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-04/rhf/index.php#16 for ozone in the water

FWIW, I no longer use ozone except once in a great while for a few hours, but when I did, I didn't consider the expense of the GAC to be significant. It doesn't need to be changed as often as a normal GAC use in an aquarium (IME).
 
I think people unwilling to do water changes are also not going to be willing to put the work in that would be required to maintain a system and all of its parameters going without.
Click to expand...
I kind of disagree with this. I do water changes maybe every 4 or 5 months and I could do more but I feel it is un necessary, wasteful and "maybe" detrimental. I admit that I don't do any of those things you do and don't even own any test kits. But I have been doing this long enough to be able to read my fish and corals to know if anything needs attention, and it rarely does. In the 60 or so years I have been keeping fish I have never tweeked the pH. But I do hatch brine shrimp every day, keep and grow blackworms and cultivate white worms. I also go out in my boat a few times a year to collect mud (for bacteria) and amphipods. I also add some NSW whenever I can.
New tanks, with all new water look lousy and are not very healthy. I am not sure why but you would think if new water was so good, why is that?
Virtually all of my paired fish are spawning and the corals, including the SPS are doing fine. If changing 20% of the water 4 or 5 times a year was detrimental my reef would not be healthy for these last 43 years. I feel people spend to much time worrying about parameters and not nearly enough time feeding their animals what they are supposed to feed them. And IMO, that is live food.

And why do we use carbon as a material to break up residual ozone?

Paul will undoubtedly say he doesn't and we needn't bother. But as to why, ozone lands on the GAC surface and breaks apart very effectively.
Click to expand...

Randy I generally just like to disagree with you. But as you know I have been using Ozone since they invented the stuff. No, not in the Creataceous period, but in 1973 or so when it came out for aquariums. In the beginning I did run it over carbon and gradually eliminated the carbon as I don't use carbon for anything any more except to barbecue. I found no detriment after discontinuing carbon and there is almost never a problem with any of my animals. I don't even have to quarantine but that is because of the live food and has nothing to do with carbon.
As for Ozone use and carbon my theory is (and I am just an electrician and you have more degrees than a celcius thermometer) I think being I use a large skimmer and Ozone is so reactive, the ozone gets used up in my skimmer long before it enters the tank. I can prove that because the water that leaves my skimmer enters a 5' algae trough above my tank. The water travels through there then back into the tank. That trough is brimming with amphipods, tiny tube worms, encrusting corals and brittle stars.
My Ozonizer is turned up to full output with no controller. Every one of those amphipods are smiling and reproducing as they are still there from last year. I know many people can site scientific papers and make references to the hazards of ozone (along with UG filters) but as I always say. Scientific studies last a couple of months or until they run out of money or just get bored. That is not even long enough to see if a new pair of shoes fit well or a tenth of the lifespan of a hermit crab (yes, mine lived to 12)
But my tank has been around since Johnson was President.
And I can tell you that, if you run Ozone into a large skimmer, there is absolutely no reason to have carbon in there.
I bet your reputation on it.

References:
Me

Old algae trough picture

 
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Paul B said:
I kind of disagree with this. I do water changes maybe every 4 or 5 months and I could do more but I feel it is un necessary, wasteful and "maybe" detrimental. I admit that I don't do any of those things you do and don't even own any test kits. But I have been doing this long enough to be able to read my fish and corals to know if anything needs attention, and it rarely does. In the 60 or so years I have been keeping fish I have never tweeked the pH. But I do hatch brine shrimp every day, keep and grow blackworms and cultivate white worms. I also go out in my boat a few times a year to collect mud (for bacteria) and amphipods. I also add some NSW whenever I can.
New tanks, with all new water look lousy and are not very healthy. I am not sure why but you would think if new water was so good, why is that?
Virtually all of my paired fish are spawning and the corals, including the SPS are doing fine. If changing 20% of the water 4 or 5 times a year was detrimental my reef would not be healthy for these last 43 years. I feel people spend to much time worrying about parameters and not nearly enough time feeding their animals what they are supposed to feed them. And IMO, that is live food.
Click to expand...

With all due respect Paul and a PRIME EXAMPLE followed your post to prove my point. You have tweaked you husbandry over the years and found a system that has worked for you. Everything from Ozone to Algae cultivating and removal (which is a prime export of many of the things we remove by doing water changes as well). I have seen your tank and while nice you have found the corals that work for your system and thrive. By trial and error you have perfected your system.

But where we part ways is exactly what follows your post. Some random hobbyist reads a paragraph that you wrote without taking any of the above into consideration and makes a statement like "I am going to do it that way too"

"I'm going to try more ozone and less water changes" I just shake my head and count down the days until we're banned from the hobby completely.
 
I do change water and never said I did not. I also stated that for about 40 years I have used Ozone with no ill effects. Has Randy ever had a problem with his animals after using Ozone? I can only report on my experience and don't make things up. I also said I use a "large" skimmer and an algae trough. Have you ever experienced any ill effect from using ozone? If you have you could legitimately contradict my post. I have direct experience with using it for many years and I feel that is proof. I also have proof that I can go for 3 months continousely without changing water. My tank pictures are always on here and you correctly pointed out that many of my corals are not the hardest to keep. That is true, I keep those corals because I like them, not because I can't keep different ones. Most of this hobby is rumor. People say UG filters can't work, I can prove they can if used correctly. Quarantine is necessary. I can prove it is not if you do certain things. I have never read anywhere that ozone affected any coral in anyone's tank, Have you?
I am sure carbon would remove any residual oxone as Randy suggested and if you have a tiny skimmer I think you should use it. I have other problems with carbon where I feel it has more problems than benefits. Again, I didn't come up with that yesterday. It came from decades of using it and for most of that time, I loved the stuff. But I learn from years of doing things, not just from reading random things on the internet. I am a doer, not just a follower.
Northside reef, I appreciate your post and I also get what you are saying. I like it when someone keeps me on my toes. Many, if not most people should probably not do what I do. I run a reverse UG filter and I am probably the only one. As I said, I am an electrician and only an expert in that. But after 60 years of looking at these slimy things, I have learned a couple of things and almost none of it from rumors on the net. :wavehand:

Certainly not the best tank on here, but I don't see much ozone damage or problems from changing water every 4 or 5 months. I think everyone should post pictures of their tank after it ran for a few decades. That fireclown is 23 years old and still spawning. No problems yet.





This one may be 8 or 10 years ago. I don't remember, but no ozone or water change problems then either.

 
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I think everyone should post pictures of their tank after it ran for a few decades.


I'm not in the habit of posting photos of my tanks with every discussion. Anyone who wants to see tanks run without ozone and with frequent water changes can find mine in the November 2011 Tank of the month feature in Reefkeeping magazine or by searching the Upstate Reef Society local forum for" puddle" which is what I call my reef system. They are not several decades old ;just one decade though. I haven't even taken new photos in the past year or so but will update them soon. The tanks are still doing very well and have had significant growth in the last few years .My six pair of clowns all breed regulafly as do the seahorses

I would not have been able to keep them the way I do without Randy's help and that of others like Boomer and Jonathan Bertoni . I do have degrees and I'm proud of them , but little to no academic backround in the hard sciences.;though, I've made it a point to study them and learn new things over the last 10 years. I'd be proud if I was a skilled craftsman or an electrician too.

When I have an electrical problem beyond my knowledge I call an electrician before putting pennies in a fuse box , disconnecting a tripped gfci or using undersized wire. When the issue is chemistry biology etc I call a scientist ,preferably one who is a aquarist , an explorer of techniques and methods and a patient teacher .
 
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If we are not putting in various items into tank ( food) that have bi products then i would say dont do waterchanges. However my opinion is that regular small waterchanges create stability. Prevent accumulation of imbalanced items to the point of it becoming a problem. It always seems that the guys that
Dont do waterchanges do actually do waterchanges "on this one occassion" to rectify a problem. If you are so confident in no waterchanges and want to promo it then dont use it to fix problems either. The best solution to pollution is.....dilution. "Rather say i do waterchanges when i feel it is necessary. Ps remember your livestock are the ones living with your decisions not you. Think more of them and less of trying to prove this or that point
 
Ps most of the guys with the top tanks in the world do waterchanges. Some others i have alterior motives to prepare market to take products they are introducing and may not always be on the up and up
 
Nice going... this prove why most people shut their mouth when they have something "different" to share.

Topic stated "...................."

Who get away with it ......

Keep the good ole way alive...

When i am in the mood i will reply some questions ... but i don't feel obligy to atm.

After all this is just a hobby..why people get so uptight i don't understand.:)
 
TMZ, I also have nothing but respect for Randy and Boomer who I have had quite a few conversations with. Randy is a chemist and because of that a valuable asset to the chemistry aspect of the hobby as is Boomer.
I just like to bust Randy's chops occasionally just because I can and he knows I don't mean anything by it. If it were not for Randy I would still be using expensive calcium and alk suppliments instead of the practically free driveway ice melter.
If I had his, or your degrees I would also be proud but I am proud to have not gone to college. While many of my friends were in college, I was a Sargent fighting a war during my college years and after that it was work. I rose to the top of my career running almost 200 man crews and I always made good money.
I am also not stupid as I am a compulsive reader of science and fact with a few novels in between. As for fish tanks, my tank was also TOTM 3 or 4 times, just last month in South Africa and I have been invited to speak on the subject twice. (I think it was also in Reefkeeper Magazine but I don't remember and I also have 2 aquarium related patents)
But I can't compete with you college guys as I don't posess the vocabulary or specialized skills to get into a conversation about it which is why I do it with pictures and personal experience. There are so many talented people on this and other forums that it is awe inspiring. I am jealous of some of the tanks but especially when I hear of someone breeding something like orange spotted filefish, cuttlefish or clingfish, creatures that most people can't even keep.
Keeping a reef tank is easy, but breeding seemingly impossable fish, is just amazing.
Many of my methods are considered radical, they are not, they were the only methods available and were very common in the earlyiest days of the hobby when virtually nothing was known about anything. I just tweeked those methods over many years to almost IMO, perfection which is why I have never posted on a disease or problem forum. I have had all the problems way before the internet was formed and lost so many fish that I am ashamed to admit. But this is a good forum and I quite like this thread, even you TMZ :wave:
 
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glennf said:
Nice going... this prove why most people shut their mouth when they have something "different" to share.

Topic stated "...................."

Who get away with it ......

Keep the good ole way alive...

When i am in the mood i will reply some questions ... but i don't feel obligy to atm.

After all this is just a hobby..why people get so uptight i don't understand.:)
Click to expand...
sorry to see you getting uptight.
 
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