schlegelli46
New member
funny thing about water changes....no wc's in the last 2 months, do one 5% wc yesterday, now my Carpet is climbing the walls???
people who go with "almost" no Water Changes needed!
- Thread starter Enzel
- Start date
mandarinfanatic
New member
schlegelli46
New member
not sure but it has been awfully content to staying in the local sand bed until I did the change yesterday...just makes me think that if it doesn't look broke, don't attempt to fix it.
Paul B
Premium Member
I think I do my best and I change very little water. Not because it is expensive or that I am lazy, I just think a tank does better with less water changes. (less, not none) A new tank with all new water looks lousy and is not very healthy. I think as water ages it gets healthier. (to a degree) I don't know why but some tanks go for years with no water changes and look fine.
I also don't think water degrades or loses it's trace elements very fast if at all.
There is probably still some water in my tank from the day it was started decades ago as I never emptied the tank. There are no problems, no diseases
(and I don't have to quarantine) SPS live and grow fine and all the paired fish are spawning and dying of old age. If I changed more water I doubt the tank could get any healthier. My nitrates are 40. I like them at 40 and will not try to lower them as the tank never looked so good when they were 10 which they were for the first 35 years or so. To me way to much water is changed wastefully in an attempt to make the tank healthier when I believe lack of the proper food is the biggest problem in this hobby and almost all "fish" problems could be eliminated with the proper food. Just my opinion of course.
References:
Me :reading:
+1 for Paul B
A good working algae scrubber, good skimmer and keeping elements and temp parameters correctly can eliminate need for water changes. Another key is not overstocking "tank parameters cant stabilize", hence the need for water changes.
I haven't done WC in 4 years. I only have a 40g tank medium to light stocked and I'm willing to take risk because it's not a crazy financial investment. I have yet to see the need for a water change. Everything in my tank is healthy. I think water changes can cause more harm than good sometimes. Algae scrubbers are your friend
Not sure I would be willing with a stocked 200g+ tank investment though. although 200+ is much easier to maintain parameters than my 40g. I even go on 2 week vacations relying only on my reefangel and haven't had any incident yet. I barely even have to clean my glass once back from vacation. Just need to refill my ATO.
I think most people probably overstock their tanks and this is why their maintenance is more. They can't keep their parameters in balance with overstocked tanks, hence the need for water changes.
Maybe someday I will do a water change. Probably if a fish dies or I notice coral die-off and I don't take care of it right away.
A good working algae scrubber, good skimmer and keeping elements and temp parameters correctly can eliminate need for water changes. Another key is not overstocking "tank parameters cant stabilize", hence the need for water changes.
I haven't done WC in 4 years. I only have a 40g tank medium to light stocked and I'm willing to take risk because it's not a crazy financial investment. I have yet to see the need for a water change. Everything in my tank is healthy. I think water changes can cause more harm than good sometimes. Algae scrubbers are your friend
Not sure I would be willing with a stocked 200g+ tank investment though. although 200+ is much easier to maintain parameters than my 40g. I even go on 2 week vacations relying only on my reefangel and haven't had any incident yet. I barely even have to clean my glass once back from vacation. Just need to refill my ATO.
I think most people probably overstock their tanks and this is why their maintenance is more. They can't keep their parameters in balance with overstocked tanks, hence the need for water changes.
Maybe someday I will do a water change. Probably if a fish dies or I notice coral die-off and I don't take care of it right away.
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I think water changes can cause more harm than good sometimes
How would that happen?
How would that happen?
Paul B
Premium Member
Randy old friend, I also think that "sometimes" but not always water changes can be detrimental. How many threads do you see where someone has an algae problem and everyone says to change water. Does that ever work? No. The algae eventually leaves on it's own weather water is changed or not. If something dies, everyone asks what the parameters are and then says, change the water. Fish almost never die because they need a water change. As I said, (and I got this from your buddy who wrote "Water Chemistry for the Advanced Aquarist" I forgot his name) that algae imparts something in the water that makes it healthier. (Guido Huckstead, thats his name, old Guido)
I happen to believe him because when my tank was going through hair algae cycles everything was the healthiest it had ever been and I couldn't kill a fish if I tried.
So besides algae I also believe some bacteria do something to the water that makes it healthier, to an extent. Why do new tanks look lousy and are so un healthy?
If you changed 100% of your water do you think your tank would be healthier? I don't think so but I know most people in this hobby do. I also know that the tanks with the most water changes and tweeking going on are the most un healthiest. Why is that?
Why do fish in new tanks suffer from so much ich? Why does cyano and hair algae grow in new tanks? Why does my tank even exist with my ancient practices and some 43 year old water? Why are all older tanks healthier than new tanks? Why isn't Christie Brinkley knocking at my door? I really don't know but I know you are the best chemist I know and I am sure you have an answer. I think Guido is dead so I can't ask him but he had some good theories and after many years, I agree with him.
I also know that you feel ASW is as good as NSW. I disagree. NSW has everything in there that was ever on earth, ASW does not. Maybe Colombus wash water is needed for something or something from undersea volcanic vents, or lightning. Things that are not in ASW. I am only an electrician with an active imagination, but I have been at this since last Tuesday and I have learned through practice. I read everything on salt water tanks but after a while I knew some of it was wrong which I found out in my own tank.
What are your thoughts on this. I already know about Miss Brinkley. :beer:
Kungpaoshizzi
In Memoriam
From what I've seen in my experience in the hobby, whenever I change more than 5-10% of the water, the tank seems to become "unstable". In the sense that whatever biological patterns were seen (algae has slowed down) it perks up for a bit, not always in a good way.
But that goes the opposite direction as well, as I approach 50% wc's a week in one big amount, algae doesn't seem to grow too well, and the tank seems quite a bit cleaner.
Of course that's A LOT of money into water and salt.
Perhaps I'm imagining things, but it seems like when doing 10% water changes a week, the tank becomes a bit unpredictable.
But that goes the opposite direction as well, as I approach 50% wc's a week in one big amount, algae doesn't seem to grow too well, and the tank seems quite a bit cleaner.
Of course that's A LOT of money into water and salt.
Perhaps I'm imagining things, but it seems like when doing 10% water changes a week, the tank becomes a bit unpredictable.
Bad hydrometer.
Incorrect specific gravity.
Anything related to human intervention can cause more harm than good. Just two reasons off the top of my head.
Sure, you can screw things up. You can change tap water for seawater. You can stick your hand in electric socket while doing it.
My question relates to how a water change done properly can make things worse. There are very few answers to that, but one, that may explain some of the experiences people see with respect to algae, is if they have let their tanks become deficient in some element (such as iron) that has become limiting to algae).
In that case, bringing water back to NSW levels (or higher) may allow a temporary increase in the growth of algae, corals, macroalgae, etc..
I agree my response was probably obtuse but not meant to be snide.
I actually wasn't addressing whether one should use ASW or NSW.
Turning it back on you, do you think that water changes with NSW can make a tank worse, aside from potentially getting some sort of unwanted organism? And if so, how?
If you changed 100% of your water do you think your tank would be healthier?
That goes beyond what I asked about, which was how a water change would make it worse, and I certainly do not recommend 100% changes except in extreme emergency where the water change is obviously a big improvement (like someone dumped bleach into the water).
The sorts of water changes that I recommend do not totally deplete the water of bacteria or algae or anything else that are in it that you may think are beneficial. A 5% change only removes 5% of these, leaving 95%. Then it rises again before the next change (assuming there is such a beneficial change occurring).
I don't know but I didn't do WC's for 6 months and I lost $600 in corals and never had an "algae problem" either before or after WC's. Was the decline because of lack of WC's or some of the other errors I was making? Hard to tell. If I were to attempt again I definitely wouldn't hesitate to change the water again at the first sign of trouble.
It is hard to tell what causes many tank failures posted across the inter-web unless it is easy to identify (power or equipment failure, etc.).
I guess my point is that there is this thing called excess. People do daily, people do limited. People run skimmers, others don't. People run LED lighting, others T5, others MH, and some a combination of all. There is no set recipe for success.
What I do know is that this is a hobby that has a lot of capital investment behind it. Furthermore, it is a hobby that has been around a while which means some practices over the years come across has being mandatory for success. I place water changes in that category.
Just my personal opinion.
Anything related to human intervention can cause more harm than good.
Once you put water in a glass box and transplant animals in it ,human intervention is a fait accompli ;managing it therefrom requires more of the same. How much of what can vary a lot based on the tank one want's to keep and a number of other variables.
In my case, 1% daily water changes are integral to my approach for the main system.
15 to 20% per month for the softie and leather tanks off the main system works fine for me. BTW, it's not that expensive relative to other supplements etc.. A reasonably priced slat mix can give you a gallon of ASW for about 25 cents.
Once you put water in a glass box and transplant animals in it ,human intervention is a fait accompli ;managing it therefrom requires more of the same. How much of what can vary a lot based on the tank one want's to keep and a number of other variables.
In my case, 1% daily water changes are integral to my approach for the main system.
15 to 20% per month for the softie and leather tanks off the main system works fine for me. BTW, it's not that expensive relative to other supplements etc.. A reasonably priced slat mix can give you a gallon of ASW for about 25 cents.
moses13
New member
Our tanks are in a constant state of change. Organisms living within them that can adapt to the conditions we provide survive, those that can't perish. But maybe more important is that over the course of years, some may evolve to flourish based on those conditions, even as they may be changing (primarily bacterial and other high turnover microorgs). So even if some trace elements deplete or accumulate over years, it is certainly possible that some populations may evolve and/or flourish by exploiting that condition to its reproductive advantage.
The first two years my tank was setup was the most enjoyable and most frustrating. I fought tooth and nail against each algae cycle and nuisance organism that popped up with water changes and trying to add specific fish/critters to eat specific algae etc. But really that was the most interesting time because its exactly a high speed version of what I said above. Everyone talks about stability being so important, and yes, wild swings in conditions are bad because it kills a lot of stuff at once. But the oceans are not static, there are storms and seasons, and freshwater runoff, and big things die and pollute. There are populations of stuff that die off when these things happen and others that thrive on the changes. Though on a minute scale, our tanks are no different.
The first two years my tank was setup was the most enjoyable and most frustrating. I fought tooth and nail against each algae cycle and nuisance organism that popped up with water changes and trying to add specific fish/critters to eat specific algae etc. But really that was the most interesting time because its exactly a high speed version of what I said above. Everyone talks about stability being so important, and yes, wild swings in conditions are bad because it kills a lot of stuff at once. But the oceans are not static, there are storms and seasons, and freshwater runoff, and big things die and pollute. There are populations of stuff that die off when these things happen and others that thrive on the changes. Though on a minute scale, our tanks are no different.
Kungpaoshizzi
In Memoriam
I wish I could remember the guys name, he's in Europe and "developed" his own system, kinda an offshoot of the balling method.
Basically, he does a water change about once a year but doses vitamins/aminos/elements all year round.. Had a heck of a tank, 300g iirc.
Just a thought to add to the discussion.. I've seen people say one way or another with decent dedication and reasoning behind it.
Just thought of that whilst reading more
It'd be interesting to see the numbers broken down:
if salt is > x$ per month+rodi
compared to
dosing supplements+top off water
I personally use the Fluval Sea Salt (hits it right on the number + a little extra) but it's fairly expensive salt at 93$ a 50 lb bucket that gives 165 gallons of asw.. So in essence, it might be cheaper for me to dose vs if I used plain old IO and bumped up the base stats
Basically, he does a water change about once a year but doses vitamins/aminos/elements all year round.. Had a heck of a tank, 300g iirc.
Just a thought to add to the discussion.. I've seen people say one way or another with decent dedication and reasoning behind it.
Just thought of that whilst reading more
It'd be interesting to see the numbers broken down:
if salt is > x$ per month+rodi
compared to
dosing supplements+top off water
I personally use the Fluval Sea Salt (hits it right on the number + a little extra) but it's fairly expensive salt at 93$ a 50 lb bucket that gives 165 gallons of asw.. So in essence, it might be cheaper for me to dose vs if I used plain old IO and bumped up the base stats
Paul B
Premium Member
I wasn't answering that, I just put it in as an extra thing. It's just me.
No I don't. If your tank is running well and is healthy, I don't think NSW can make it worse. But I do feel that ASW is not NSW. NSW is billions of years old and probably contains multitudes of chemicals that can not be tested for. Chemicals that are exuded by algae, bacteria, fish, coral, volcanoes, meteorites and lightning along with everything that has washed into the sea from the time the oceans were formed. Sea creatures evolved in this water, good and bad and some of those things are probably needed. ASW was made a few weeks ago by a chemist reading from a book about what we "think" should be added to ASW in the amounts we feel are the correct amounts. The chemicals that ASW is made from are pure chemicals, the stuff in NSW is not. But as I usually say, I am an electrician and you are the chemist.
Turning it back on you, why would you not recommend changing 100% of the water? The vast majority of bacteria will stay on the rock and substrate. What is wrong with changing 100% of the water and using ASW? :sad2:
Kungpaoshizzi
In Memoriam
True story!
When I think of asw, I think of the breakdown I found awhile back of the popular salt mixes. Some even contained x+% higher than NSW of crazy compounds that are toxic.. Always made me doubt how "good" asw is... (let alone 'what the heck are they putting in there!?')
