people who go with "almost" no Water Changes needed!

[OrionN]

If your system cant process excess food build up and such you should start your aquarium over your doing something wrong

Changing water is hardly start over. My flame agels, Watanabe angels, Royal Gramma, Lyetail Anthias, Clowns are spawning in my tank. all my fish are fat and disease free, even when I don't QT my fish and add fish with Ich to the system. Unlike you, I would argue that:

If your animals are not doing well then surely not doing things right.

 

[AquariumNut]

I only say that cause you say a Wc is necessary to remove build up from food and for healthy fish . Ive seen more than enough tanks just in this thread that dont do water changes and their fish are perfectly healthy so your statement isnt true

 

[reefwiser]

NO, not at all. It would be a very boring hobby without progress if everyone ran their tanks the same way. I run several in different ways ,personally, fwiw.

If someone has a commercial interest in a product system ,et alia,they are supporting , they should divulge it ;it's an RC requirement.

The record is pretty clear in this thread on who's been attacking whom as I outlined it a few post back.
I have read a lot about his methods ; I just don't buy it as an alternative to small frequent water changes ; there are valid unanswered questions and concerns,IMO.
I am always looking for ways to improve and encourage others to do so . Not every one who questions a different approach , trend or fad is stultifying; quite the contrary, rigorous examination leads to more understandable and useable information to empower informed decisions . There shouldn't be an us vs them mentality to it .

If someone has a commercial interest in a product system ,et alia,they are supporting , they should divulge it ;it's an RC requirement.

I don't think GlennF is getting rich off DSR. It cost just 126 bucks for a whole years worth of dosing for a small tank. An he only did that because he was worry that people would be using the wrong additives and so he was forced into supplying dosing additives. I think we need to learn about what is in our water and why we do things. Blanket water changes of said amount with everyone doing little amounts a day, to once a week , to once a month ,too.......
Is not the correct approach. We must no what we are trying to correct with a water change is there something out of balance that may be corrected in an easier manner? Maybe. We need to learn more about our tanks and see less post's of my water parameters are great but all my corals/fish died.
Action without proper knowledge to back that action will just cause more chain reactions that may turn out in a bad outcome.

 

[reefgeezer]

I don't think GlennF is getting rich off DSR. It cost just 126 bucks for a whole years worth of dosing for a small tank.

Define small. A weekly 10% water change on a 50 gallon tank would only cost about $100 using moderately priced salt mixes.

 

[OrionN]

I only say that cause you say a Wc is necessary to remove build up from food and for healthy fish . Ive seen more than enough tanks just in this thread that dont do water changes and their fish are perfectly healthy so your statement isnt true

Fish are easy to keep alive. Keep in optimal condition so that they are thriving and breeding is a little harder. The more sensitive inverterbrates are more difficult to keep thriving.
We can sit here all day debating who have healtier fish but if we can keep our fish breeding in our tank, then we can be sure that they are healthy and at optimal condition. Regarding corals, how well they grow, color and others. Hard to judge at one glance. That is why I said compair the best of tanks with water changes and the best of tank wiout water change. If we are honest with ourselves, we can see the differences.

 

[Paul B]

my flame agels, watanabe angels, royal gramma, lyetail anthias, clowns are spawning in my tank. All my fish are fat and disease free, even when i don't qt my fish and add fish with ich to the system. Unlike you, i would argue that:

+1

fish are easy to keep alive. Keep in optimal condition so that they are thriving and breeding is a little harder. The more sensitive inverterbrates are more difficult to keep thriving.

+2

 

[tmz]

i don't qt my fish and add fish with ich to the system.

That's unfortunate; water changes don't have anything to do with ich which attacks healthy and weakened fish, IME.

 

[TopOff]

No water changes is just absurd.

A tank that's maintained with proper water changes and elements will be far healthier.

You guys think that your tanks are clean and thriving.

Please pump a couple gallons of your water in a white five gallon bucket so we can see how clean it is. It will be yellow.

Let me guess, a skimmer is useless too...

What about powerheads.....do you not use those either?

I mean I can stir my water with a stick, but a powerhead is nice.

I can go without a skimmer, but why?

I can go quite a while without changing the water too...but it's stupid.

Whatever floats ur boat!

 

[AquariumNut]

Lol you guys think that your tanks are clean and thriving .... I guess all their test kits are broken and they have magical glass that makes their water look clean too lol

 

[tmz]

I don't think GlennF is getting rich

I don't care if someone gets rich or not and have no idea what his motives are; nor do I intend to impugn or salute them.
However, if there is a commercial interest it needs to be disclosed up front. It may or may not suggest a bias.
As with all commerce; I say; caveat emptor.


. We must no what we are trying to correct with a water change is there something out of balance that may be corrected in an easier manner? Maybe.

Yes, there may be a number of better ways to manage the water ; I haven't found any that fit my system as well as small frequent water changes which are pretty easy.
I know why I do the small changes and the other things I do and have spelled them out. I understand what's in the water and what those things do as much as most.Is there a better way?I hope so because I like continUous improvement.

Somethings are not easily measured even with the equipment availbe to most of us. There is much to learn about the biological roles of many things too;they shouldn't be dismissed as unimportant in excess or sparsity just because they can't be easily measured or fit a particlar sytstem or product line, IMO. Are they all important ? Maybe not but some clearly are, like:3 excess free copper ,zinc, nickel, etc.
I rely on small water changes and feeding ; others may have success by their own personal definition,the only one that matters btw , in other ways. I'd like to hear about other methods from them to develop further insight.
Reduced or no water changes as a topic encompasses a lot more than a particular venture .

 

[TopOff]

I don't think GlennF is getting rich

I don't care if someone gets rich or not and have no idea what his motives are; nor do I intend to impugn or salute them.
However, if there is a commercial interest it needs to be disclosed up front. It may or may not suggest a bias.
As with all commerce; I say; caveat emptor.


. We must no what we are trying to correct with a water change is there something out of balance that may be corrected in an easier manner? Maybe.

Yes, there may be a number of better ways to manage the water ; I haven't found any that fit my system as well as small frequent water changes which are pretty easy.
I know why I do the small changes and the other things I do and have spelled them out. I understand what's in the water and what those things do as much as most.Is there a better way?I hope so because I like continUous improvement.

Somethings are not easily measured even with the equipment availbe to most of us. There is much to learn about the biological roles of many things too;they shouldn't be dismissed as unimportant in excess or sparsity just because they can't be easily measured or fit a particlar sytstem or product line, IMO. Are they all important ? Maybe not but some clearly are, like:3 excess free copper ,zinc, nickel, etc.
I rely on small water changes and feeding ; others may have success by their own personal definition,the only one that matters btw , in other ways. I'd like to hear about other methods from them to develop further insight.
Reduced or no water changes as a topic encompasses a lot more than a particular venture .

Exactly!

These guys are doing more work. They just don't think they are.



I wonder how long I can go without checking my brake fluid?!?! :headwallblue: :celeb1:

 

[TopOff]

Lol you guys think that your tanks are clean and thriving .... I guess all their test kits are broken and they have magical glass that makes their water look clean too lol

Still waiting on white 5/g bucket pics. That tells the truth about water.

 

[glennf]

initially there was no commercial interest for me.
i was just sharing my own private experience with folks.
i got real good result with no water changes by just doing water management using chemistry and calculated dosing, i was amazed myself...
just like here i was enthousiast to share it because everyone said it could not be done. Surprise......i proved different..

well at a certain point came the resistance, just like in here, disbelieve, it can't be done, it can't be that easy, it is plain stupid, what about this, what about that, what about a thousand other things. What if we never tried ???

At a certain point i got fed up with it and it became a question of principle. i contacted the forum owner and became sponsor on my home forum , just to shut up the trollers and flamers.
what about that.... it worked! everyone was quite and as a sponsor you get some respect/protection.
so what is the moral of the story
when you pay you can say a lot, when you are a nobody but have a good idea you want to share with fellow reefer you get attacked.

i had to pay about ~400 euro for the forum sponsoring, so i needed to get that back (or my wife would have killed me).
so i said "no worries wiffy, i will get it back.

i start making the stuff available for people (many people sell self grown frags to make the hobby affordable). Most people who contacted me were on the virge of quiting, having tried many methods to maintain their tank (most of then with regular WC), but still no result. They probably said to themselves "i have nothing to lose, why not try that crazy method of Glenn".

First i used recycled soda bottles, but i saw it was very risky for children who could mistake it for something else, so i used more professional looking packaging.

when Tanne Hoff was at my home he saw the first glance of the pilot packaging and het ask me if he could take a picture and write an article about it on reefbuil..rs

This is when my initial tread was removed on RC and i got a warning. Most of my right were revoked and i can't even look up public profiles or sent /recieve PM's.

So why keep on posting? i say, why not ? if you understand passionate reefers, you know they want to share their successes with others regarding the few that are bashing on them.

now i know i need to refrain from mentioning my method i will keep in line , but how far i can share is something that the future will tell.
i already mentioned it in here:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=22771062&postcount=98

yes, you may say fist it was about sharing, that became hard to do, so i needed to pay to share, that needed to be funded.
in the netherlands i have no problem to fund and share, because it's my country where i live and have friends in the reefing community. i am being ask for readings and presentation bij reefing clubs.
outside the netherlands it's another story, i see no reason and means to do what i do in the netherlands.

how did it got started:
reefer with problem > tried all classic methode > no cure > contacted me as a last resort > it work out fine for him > other reefer with similar issues also try it > it work out fine too > another > and another > reefshops get questions > reefshop supply their customers and they are succesfull too > other reefshop does the same > and another and another. ( i suppose the reefshop in the netherlands are pretty ignorant, if they accept something that wouldn't work)
Commercial driven ??? i say problem solving. These are the facts, draw your own conclusion.

anyway, never had i said that my way was the best.
i only show how it could be done and what result could be reached.
judging from most "bashing" reactions, most haven't read anything i stand for and the faintest clue what i am talking about.

i will reply on serious and honest questions , but flamers will get no reply.
i dont say i know it all, but i have done nearly all disciplines of the saltwater hobby.

 

[saf1]

There are things, micro nutrient, that we need to add, other things, micro toxins, that we need to remove. Build up from food.
Water change is a way to do that. If you dont add any food, then you have starve animals. I know of a reefer that don't feed his tank. He can only keep a few fish, and they are starving skeleton at that.

Build a tank with occupants that stay within the bio-type and this won't happen. In other words you can set up a reef tank, use proper substrate type, coral for the environment you are trying to replicate, light, flow, and then add fish and not need to feed(within reason of course). Self sustaining, algae, etc. Its the food chain working within the confined space. People do it all the time and it looks nice with healthy creatures.

Problems arise when the hobbyist isn't conscientious of what he or she is putting in either by ignorance or bliss.

The goal for us should be healthy animals, not how little one can change water and not kill all of our animal. I am sure that without water change, some of the animal can live, but many or most will not be in good condition.

You are assuming one leads to the other. Again, people who go with little or no or something different than what you do is a failed system in your opinion. Or will fail. That is a fallacy and the debate at hand.

Compare the healthy of the animals, those that live in a best well mantain tank will be better than those in a best tank with no water change everytime.

Big hobby. Not everyone posts in public forums let alone this one. We probably both agree there are different ways to manage a tank and not many people do it the same way. There is no standard in this hobby that says do this which will equate to a beautiful tank. Humans are humans and we do stuff differently. Don't discredit another way of doing something even if it is outside the box you employ.

 

[saf1]

No water changes is just absurd.

A tank that's maintained with proper water changes and elements will be far healthier.

You guys think that your tanks are clean and thriving.

Please pump a couple gallons of your water in a white five gallon bucket so we can see how clean it is. It will be yellow.

Let me guess, a skimmer is useless too...

What about powerheads.....do you not use those either?

I mean I can stir my water with a stick, but a powerhead is nice.

I can go without a skimmer, but why?

I can go quite a while without changing the water too...but it's stupid.

Whatever floats ur boat!

You do know that you don't need most of the stuff on your list? Skimmers are not mandated and many don't use them. Power heads are optional - its related to water flow and movement. Ever hear of sea swirls, closed loops, or wave or surge devices?

It isn't stupid to do less water changes just like it isn't stupid for you to use a skimmer or MH lighting. If it works for you then great. However, it does not mean if I replicate your system and methods mine will be successful...no more than you replicating mine.

 

[glennf]

my message:
if you have a nice tank and you're happy with it, stick to your way !
if you have a way of helping fellow reefing in distress, do share you knowledge ! but don't try to force you opinion down their throat. After all it's your opinion and it's suppose to be an advice not mandatory.

i don't force anyone to do like i do, but feel free to read about it, after all it's just my opinion. it can be useful or just disregarded as garbage. Anyway it's out there to be read and may help you out one day.
my only mission is to enrich the hobby for those who need enriching.
for those who know it all, my writings have no additional value

initially there was no commercial interest for me.
i was just sharing my own private experience with folks.
i got real good result with no water changes by just doing water management using chemistry and calculated dosing, i was amazed myself...
just like here i was enthousiast to share it because everyone said it could not be done. Surprise......i proved different..

well at a certain point came the resistance, just like in here, disbelieve, it can't be done, it can't be that easy, it is plain stupid, what about this, what about that, what about a thousand other things. What if we never tried ???

At a certain point i got fed up with it and it became a question of principle. i contacted the forum owner and became sponsor on my home forum , just to shut up the trollers and flamers.
what about that.... it worked! everyone was quite and as a sponsor you get some respect/protection.
so what is the moral of the story
when you pay you can say a lot, when you are a nobody but have a good idea you want to share with fellow reefer you get attacked.

i had to pay about ~400 euro for the forum sponsoring, so i needed to get that back (or my wife would have killed me).
so i said "no worries wiffy, i will get it back.

i start making the stuff available for people (many people sell self grown frags to make the hobby affordable). Most people who contacted me were on the virge of quiting, having tried many methods to maintain their tank (most of then with regular WC), but still no result. They probably said to themselves "i have nothing to lose, why not try that crazy method of Glenn".

First i used recycled soda bottles, but i saw it was very risky for children who could mistake it for something else, so i used more professional looking packaging.

when Tanne Hoff was at my home he saw the first glance of the pilot packaging and het ask me if he could take a picture and write an article about it on reefbuil..rs

This is when my initial tread was removed on RC and i got a warning. Most of my right were revoked and i can't even look up public profiles or sent /recieve PM's.

So why keep on posting? i say, why not ? if you understand passionate reefers, you know they want to share their successes with others regarding the few that are bashing on them.

now i know i need to refrain from mentioning my method i will keep in line , but how far i can share is something that the future will tell.
i already mentioned it in here:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=22771062&postcount=98

yes, you may say fist it was about sharing, that became hard to do, so i needed to pay to share, that needed to be funded.
in the netherlands i have no problem to fund and share, because it's my country where i live and have friends in the reefing community. i am being ask for readings and presentation bij reefing clubs.
outside the netherlands it's another story, i see no reason and means to do what i do in the netherlands.

how did it got started:
reefer with problem > tried all classic methode > no cure > contacted me as a last resort > it work out fine for him > other reefer with similar issues also try it > it work out fine too > another > and another > reefshops get questions > reefshop supply their customers and they are succesfull too > other reefshop does the same > and another and another. ( i suppose the reefshop in the netherlands are pretty ignorant, if they accept something that wouldn't work)
Commercial driven ??? i say problem solving. These are the facts, draw your own conclusion.

anyway, never had i said that my way was the best.
i only show how it could be done and what result could be reached.
judging from most "bashing" reactions, most haven't read anything i stand for and the faintest clue what i am talking about.

i will reply on serious and honest questions , but flamers will get no reply.
i dont say i know it all, but i have done nearly all disciplines of the saltwater hobby.

 

[rbla51]

Man.. Seems most everyone here wants to argue. Thanks for reminding why I stay away from forums

 

[OrionN]

i don't qt my fish and add fish with ich to the system.

That's unfortunate; water changes don't have anything to do with ich which attacks healthy and weakened fish, IME.

I disagree that not QT fish is bad. I keep marine aquarium since 1980 and never have problem with fish disease outbreak.
Corals, clams and anemones is another mater entirely.
Fish disease do not have a chance in my system. I don't add fish that is obviously sick. A few spots of Ich is fine in my tank. Ich never spread to my other fishes and just died off (the Ich) in a week or two. I have hard to keep fish and they do just fine. This works for me because I think I have a very natural balance ecosystem and the fish are very healthy.
I have a fully run reef tank to QT all my anemones, corals and clams. None of these get into my tank until they get close observation in my QT system. In the last 30+ years I got some bad pests. PMD in clams, Red bugs, Montipora eating Nudi, Clam parasitic snails, snail parasitic snails. I have not have to treat my DT system ever. Only close time was the outbreak of red flatworm in my 450 tank. However with good water management, the flatworm seem to fizzle out too.

 

[reefwiser]

Mostly discussing.

 

[glennf]

Man.. Seems most everyone here wants to argue. Thanks for reminding why I stay away from forums

That's why most people read but never write anything. Sadly It's the same everywhere, so we need to live with it.
When you stick out you head above the rest it will get chopped off.
When you don't have strong facts they are waiting on line to blow you to pieces.

The subject No WC has always been a Taboo and still is . Many people developed their own way, but wil never share it. Now you can see why...

Been there before at my home forums, it's dejavu all over again.
Now even the initial naysayers seems to believe it's plausible and even reproduceable.

Probably you need a topic with the title that looks like " No water change sanctuary!"
Where kindred spirits can exchange their experience without getting bashed or condamned.