people who go with "almost" no Water Changes needed!

[Aquarist007]

I had the pleasure of reading this thread from start to finish (up to last night). Being interested in the consensus, I pulled the information into Excel this morning. The plot below shows the trend in when data was provided, early on in the thread's lifecycle but then petering out over the years and turning into a more philosophical discussion what seemed like fewer members.

More to the point what did the data suggest? Is there a relationship between water change frequency and the age of the set up? Hard to say. If we believe that as tanks matures, water changes aren't as important AND the aquarist relaxes a bit, we might expect to see longer periods between changes as the tank ages. I don't see a trend. There doesn't seem to be a trend between no water changes and age of set up.

What about frequency of water changes and tank size? As you can see, there does not seem to a pattern. One might postulate that bigger set ups would tend to be more stable and not require as frequent water changes as smaller systems.

What about the size of the water change and the size of the system? Again, no trends

While the data did not explicitly give a direction to take, I offer you a potential take away message based on the many arguments that I heard:

1) The frequency and/or the size of water changes will/should decrease as the system matures.

2) Animal and plant growth, and maybe the overall appearance of the tank, should be the guiding principle about water changes, frequency and volume, should or can be altered. Water chemistry tests alone represent an incomplete diagnosis of the system's health.

3) Every system is different and the age of the system alone is an inadequate way to describe its maturity.

4) There is likely to be a lot of implicit knowledge each aquarist possesses about his system that is typically not shared in forums or lectures. Just looking at pictures of aquariums will not lead me to understand why a particular aquarist is so darn successful.

There is probably plenty more to say on this topic, so, I plan on updating the analysis in 2017 or when we double the amount of data.

Dan

I used to think it took a person with exceptional science skills to be successful in this hobby. Now I believe it is a gut feeling when your tank is well or when something needs a bit of attention.
And that skill can be learned but through years and years of figuring out for yourself what to do.
If your going to improve on that skill then listen to the reefers that had to learn it for themselves

 

[glennf]

So you suggesting they are all fools who can't think for themselves ?

No, I didn't say that but there are misrepresentations and that restatement of my position is just one example. Most folks can sort the wheat from the chaff once the facts are out.

Many people are so fixed on one way that they leaf no space for others. If they were told then that lead is gold , they won't even recognise real gold even if they stumbled over it.

That supercilious statement to which I responded , seems to imply that folks not choosing your method are worthy of disdain and too dumb to know the difference between lead and gold and that the true gold is in your method. Most folks are smart enough to know better.

Complex dosing schemes and measures for some of the elements in lieu of water changes without the benefit of export isn't my choice; less so when a commercial interest is involved .
Learning about the organisms response to certain element levels and organics is useful but there is little of that out there beyon anecdotal infroamtion which is useful but less probative ; enough though on some, like copper and other metals bound or unbound to warrant some attention to export,IMO.

I am interested in options to ASW but haven't found any real reason not to do small water changes with ASW mixes ,yet.

I'd like to hear more about other successful systems without water changes and discuss them. Raising questions and provoking thought does not stall progress,it can help map the way. If you don't know where you are going any road will get you there.
.
There is no reason to believe small frequent water changes are harder or less expensive than complex though incomplete measuring and dosing schemes;certainly they are not less complete in effect ,IMO and IME.
I don't mind testing, probably do more than most including major minor and trace elements I can measure; I just like to know what they are in my aquariums and if any trends develop that I can gain insight from; but I don't chase numbers with loads of supplements and knee jerk reactions . I rarely see a need to dsoe anything other than fcalcium hydroxide and sdome solubne organic carbon.. The small frequent water changes and food seem to take care of the rest.
So for now I 'll keep doing what I do with regard to water changes. That doesn't mean others may not have other prefered methods for success ; nor that one way is better than another.

Just keep on doing what you believe in ot works fine for you it seems. I believe this will just be another tug of war with no ending anyway. Just because you don't believe anything can work, does not mean this should deprive others from learning new ways by using common sense.
Not all folk are plain stupid as you suggest.

These discussion leads nowhere, and only move away from the core.

i say it is possible to go without water changes for very long time and get great result. You can manage you water quality if you are willing to learn how to do that.

If you are not willing to learn more about water management you should stick to plain water changes.

My tank has been featured in many magazine all over the world. You don't just get that result from just fooling around with some water parameter.
Just google my name than you will find plenty.

 

[glennf]

4) There is likely to be a lot of implicit knowledge each aquarist possesses about his system that is typically not shared in forums or lectures. Just looking at pictures of aquariums will not lead me to understand why a particular aquarist is so darn successful.

Dan

I am just wondering why the information were not shared.........

Just look what happens when people try to share things that does not comply with what other seems to "know" to be accepted.

I have seen and experience it all and ... so i know what i am talking about.
In my own country people try to shut me up , so i was forced to become a sponsor which lead to the path i follow now.

I was determine to prove that my way was reproducable by other reefers.
Nowadays i have helped many reefers who were on the virge of quiting forever to stay into this beautiful hobby. So yeah i so have done usefull work for the reefing community out here ...

 

[rbla51]

this is all very interesting to me... i do a 10% weekly. I have never dosed a chemical and i have never tested my water quality. For me the water changes are the life saver.......very interesting thread

 

[tmz]

Just because you don't believe anything can work, does not mean this should deprive others from learning new ways by using common sense.
Not all folk are plain stupid as you suggest.:lol2::lol2::lmao:


There you go again ,putting words in someone's mouth that aren't remotely close to the statements actually made. Folks can read them for themselves.
I don't suggest that at all. Haven't said or implied anything like that . You continue to misrepresent and deride everyone who favors water changes or questions your approach. I think there are many ways to improve any aquarium,some yet undiscovered. Just don't, personally, see it in your method and certainly don't think people here are stupid.
After reviewing your approach carefully with an open mind , I'm just not buying what you are selling. The approach is sketchy and fails to answer important questions in my estimation.
It is you who are quick with the insults suggesting anyone who doesn't jump on the bandwagon you are trying to drive is closed minded to ideas and discussion and improvements.
Examples of derisive commentary from you throughout this thread include:
the mayority do wc and condeming those who don't

No they don't ;most are looking for ideas and solid approaches and information to improve their tank's performance . They make their own assessments.

unless you are openminded, going without water changes can't be done.

I believe it might be possible whether one is open minded or closed minded, The question is really why and what is a useful method. Hard to get by the lack of export for excess though.

Presuming it is beyound our reach and it will be far to expensive is just what i meant with close minded.


That's not what anyone is saying other than youthrough your straw man.

Some people feel they should decide for others what is right or not. It seems they think there are only toddlers in here who can't think for themselves. So they deprive them of the choice.

Discussing the facts and raising questions does not imply anyone want's to make someone else's decisions for them. Folks should make their own informed decisions about the tanks they want to keep and the methods they choose. Most folks who participate these threads are independent thinkers very capable of making their own decisions and sorting out the facts.I think you have an unjustifiably low opinion of the participants in this thread who don't trumpet your particular approach.
If you can't look further than the common accepted way, than you will not learn from a new point of vieuw.

Absolutely, why do you think folks are discussing things here if not seeking ways to improve?those who don't do water changes, always get condemned when they try to share

Who has been doing this condemnation except for your condemnation of those who honestly disagree with you as somehow irrationally protecting another way .


Most of them don't even bother sharing for for that reason.

How do you know that?

Parotting or thinking for yourselves?

Wow , do you really think participants in this thread who disagree with you are just parrots incapable of independent thought?

Many people are so fixed on one way that they leaf no space for others. If they were told then that lead is gold , they won't even recognise real gold even if they stumbled over it
Alll these many people are not stupid and fixated and know gold when they see it . Do you think they are stupid just because some don't think your system is gold.

 

[tmz]

Several have asked for pictures of my tanks via pm. I am in the process of updating my photo buckett library. I'm not very good at photography nor do I like moving pictures around. Here are some random shots from last year I posted on another thread recently:
#719

 

[zoomonster]

:headwalls: This thread is classic like so many others (and many subjects elsewhere). I've done both more frequent water changes and little to none so I'm not taking sides. Does not matter how much evidence you have or your point of view people by nature will argue for the sake of arguing or think they know better (whether they do or not is a different matter). It's kind of like the hurdles of convincing the masses the world is round rather than flat (and not getting hung, burned or disemboweled as a heretic for it). If I was to advocate it would be for moderation. Best analogy for water changes is people and cars. Some never wash, some occasionally all the way up to the OCD types that feel a need to wash, wax and/or wipe down their car almost daily. Some just don't get you can't force your opinion (regardless of the facts) down someone's throat because people will be pig headed people. Trust me I've met plenty of people in my day that talked tank smack and had some god awful tanks. Then there's some with great tanks that somehow make them masters of the universe (in their own minds of course). Then of course there are some that are masters but don't flaunt it and get taken more seriously. There's really not a whole lot of those that when they speak I truly listen. Everyone else is taken under advisement :fun2:

 

[Aquarist007]

Several have asked for pictures of my tanks via pm. I am in the process of updating my photo buckett library. I'm not very good at photography nor do I like moving pictures around. Here are some random shots from last year I posted on another thread recently:
#719

Thanks Tom for posting those great shots. I've changed my method to daily one gal water changes

 

[glennf]

Just because you don't believe anything can work, does not mean this should deprive others from learning new ways by using common sense.
Not all folk are plain stupid as you suggest.:lol2::lol2::lmao:


There you go again ,putting words in someone's mouth that aren't remotely close to the statements actually made. Folks can read them for themselves.
I don't suggest that at all. Haven't said or implied anything like that . You continue to misrepresent and deride everyone who favors water changes or questions your approach. I think there are many ways to improve any aquarium,some yet undiscovered. Just don't, personally, see it in your method and certainly don't think people here are stupid.
After reviewing your approach carefully with an open mind , I'm just not buying what you are selling. The approach is sketchy and fails to answer important questions in my estimation.
It is you who are quick with the insults suggesting anyone who doesn't jump on the bandwagon you are trying to drive is closed minded to ideas and discussion and improvements.
Examples of derisive commentary from you throughout this thread include:
the mayority do wc and condeming those who don't

No they don't ;most are looking for ideas and solid approaches and information to improve their tank's performance . They make their own assessments.

unless you are openminded, going without water changes can't be done.

I believe it might be possible whether one is open minded or closed minded, The question is really why and what is a useful method. Hard to get by the lack of export for excess though.

Presuming it is beyound our reach and it will be far to expensive is just what i meant with close minded.


That's not what anyone is saying other than youthrough your straw man.

Some people feel they should decide for others what is right or not. It seems they think there are only toddlers in here who can't think for themselves. So they deprive them of the choice.

Discussing the facts and raising questions does not imply anyone want's to make someone else's decisions for them. Folks should make their own informed decisions about the tanks they want to keep and the methods they choose. Most folks who participate these threads are independent thinkers very capable of making their own decisions and sorting out the facts.I think you have an unjustifiably low opinion of the participants in this thread who don't trumpet your particular approach.
If you can't look further than the common accepted way, than you will not learn from a new point of vieuw.

Absolutely, why do you think folks are discussing things here if not seeking ways to improve?those who don't do water changes, always get condemned when they try to share

Who has been doing this condemnation except for your condemnation of those who honestly disagree with you as somehow irrationally protecting another way .


Most of them don't even bother sharing for for that reason.

How do you know that?

Parotting or thinking for yourselves?

Wow , do you really think participants in this thread who disagree with you are just parrots incapable of independent thought?

Many people are so fixed on one way that they leaf no space for others. If they were told then that lead is gold , they won't even recognise real gold even if they stumbled over it
Alll these many people are not stupid and fixated and know gold when they see it . Do you think they are stupid just because some don't think your system is gold.

Just what i meant..... who's fixated on who?

Those "strawmen" are real people with with real aquariums They had serious problems before. Now they are happy and their tanks are under control.

You seem to think this is all a complot, but it only look like you are fixed on preventing others to look into other idea's.

This wil go and on .....and .....on just te prevent people from hearing the real story..

I rest my case.....

 

[reefwiser]

.

Posting pictures over and over a again really doesn't prove anything. I've read all the threads on your system including those that were removed for commercial interest and the later one where you solicit contributions for continuing research for another party.

I think it's only fair to note and explain that what you say you do involves a lot of testing and number chasing for at least 10 or so elements to substitute for water changes. It's a bit complex but leaves gaps. Seems like if you can't measure; it is dismissed as unimportant.
On it's face it's a nice effort that may offer some opportunities for learning and improvement. It might be a good thing to control what goes into the tank without relying on salt manufacturers;though,even if that were achievable, it doesn't account for any export at all in the method for elements that may prove harmful over time.

It does,however , involve chasing a bunch of numbers and dosing a bunch of elements and is not typical of what most folks envision in no water change approaches ;so,it seems your criticism of "chasing numbers" made in an earlier post is at best duplicitious:

Isn't that what we are aiming for instead of chasing numbers?

So we just attack people that don't maintain their system they way YOU do.
it's just bad form. I can see by this posting response you have not fully read up on GlennF or visited European forums where DSR is discussed. I am always trying to learn new things in this hobby not continuing down the same well worn path.

 

[TopOff]

Why would you not do a water change is beyond me. It's silly. Water changes add back things that have been depleted or consumed. Very important. They also take out take away potential problems.

It's just silly.

Kinda like a thread that reads...

"People who go years with almost no oil changes or brake pad changes."

Not very intelligent.

 

[AquariumNut]

Why would you not do a water change is beyond me. It's silly. Water changes add back things that have been depleted or consumed. Very important. They also take out take away potential problems.

It's just silly.

Kinda like a thread that reads...

"People who go years with almost no oil changes or brake pad changes."

Not very intelligent.

In your opinion and theres nothing salt mixes add that you can't add from a bottle . Like one of the other posters said earlier . If it isn't broken why try to fix it ? If people have success and stability with out water changes why call it stupid ? Cause you have to do water changes to be successful and think everyone else should too ? All they've done is set up an environment, and everything takes care of something . It works so its not silly, narrow mindedness is silly .

 

[Decadence]

Why would you not do a water change is beyond me. It's silly. Water changes add back things that have been depleted or consumed. Very important. They also take out take away potential problems.

It's just silly.

Kinda like a thread that reads...

"People who go years with almost no oil changes or brake pad changes."

Not very intelligent.

Oil gets contaminated by hydrocarbons from your fuel and particulate carbon left over from the combustion process, causing it to lose its viscocity. It also slowly gets burned as it slips past piston rings and valve stem seals. There are no methods to reverse this. If there were, as an automotive shop owner, engine builder,race car builder and long-term hobbyist, I can assure you that I would never change my oil. Brake pads are the same, wear is linear and dependant only on normal stopping conditions. When they are worn past the limit, they get replaced.

Not doing water changes regularly relies on you to remove the waste and replenish necessary elements. Glennf does that, I do that and many others do that. I have gone as long as a year without a water change. Right now I'm at two months. My water changes are small and far between. I dose iron, potassium , iodine and magnesium in addition to my kalk and calcium reactors. Levels are always perfect and when I do a water change, it's just because I feel like it and it can't hurt. I'm leaning every day towards doing only one large water change per year or setting up daily 0.25% automatic water changes just to balance out chloride and sulfate levels from dosing.

 

[AquariumNut]

Oil gets contaminated by hydrocarbons from your fuel and particulate carbon left over from the combustion process, causing it to lose its viscocity. It also slowly gets burned as it slips past piston rings and valve stem seals. There are no methods to reverse this. If there were, as an automotive shop owner, engine builder,race car builder and long-term hobbyist, I can assure you that I would never change my oil.

I do know an old school guy that uses those old bi-pass toilet paper oil filters and never changes his oil just tops it up every now and then and changes his filters . he uses normal oil not synthetic and says changing oil is bad cause it takes about 50 thousand miles just for the minerals that are good for the engine to start working there way into it . ( not sure if hes right or just a crazy 90 year old ) but his cars still run . Mostly old beetles

 

[tmz]

So we just attack people that don't maintain their system they way YOU do.
it's just bad form. I can see by this posting response you have not fully read up on GlennF or visited European forums where DSR is discussed. I am always trying to learn new things in this hobby not continuing down the same well worn path.

NO, not at all. It would be a very boring hobby without progress if everyone ran their tanks the same way. I run several in different ways ,personally, fwiw with respect to skimming , feeding , lighting , sand beds and so on. They all receive water changes. Some less :some more.

If someone has a commercial interest in a product system ,et alia,they are supporting , they should divulge it ;it's an RC requirement.

The record is pretty clear in this thread on who's been attacking whom as I outlined it a few post back.
I have read a lot about his methods ; I just don't buy it as an alternative to small frequent water changes ; there are valid unanswered questions and concerns,IMO.
I am always looking for ways to improve and encourage others to do so . Not every one who questions a different approach , trend or fad is stultifying; quite the contrary, rigorous examination leads to more understandable and useable information to empower informed decisions . There shouldn't be an us vs them mentality inference drawn from it .

If someone has a commercial interest in a product system ,et alia,they are supporting , they should divulge it ;it's an RC requirement. Pointing it out is not a personal attack.

 

[glennf]

Why would you not do a water change is beyond me. It's silly. Water changes add back things that have been depleted or consumed. Very important. They also take out take away potential problems.

It's just silly.

Kinda like a thread that reads...

"People who go years with almost no oil changes or brake pad changes."

Not very intelligent.

What is silly? innovations ?

In earlier days we had go to the dealer every 10k for a oil oil change .
Now we do 25k or more with better oil, we get more performance and consume less fuel on the mile.

So should we have stopped with development at carburators....? Some people still believe cars with carburators are easier to maintain, it is their right to do so.

Brakes are beter nowaday ,they stops a car faster and also last longer. Ceramic breaks last a lifetime.
That my friend, is called progress

 

[OrionN]

There are things, micro nutrient, that we need to add, other things, micro toxins, that we need to remove. Build up from food.
Water change is a way to do that. If you dont add any food, then you have starve animals. I know of a reefer that don't feed his tank. He can only keep a few fish, and they are starving skeleton at that.

The goal for us should be healthy animals, not how little one can change water and not kill all of our animal. I am sure that without water change, some of the animal can live, but many or most will not be in good condition.

Compare the healthy of the animals, those that live in a best well mantain tank will be better than those in a best tank with no water change everytime.

 

[tmz]

I don't think it's silly to attempt to control elements organics and ratios with or without water changes; just don't see the no change approach as being a very useful way to manage the water.

Water is only H2O ,so there is no reason to avoid changing it that I can see . Many ASW mixes do pretty good job along with foods to the aquarium in maintaining adequate levels of many major, minor and trace elements IME. There is nothing to stop one from leaning about water management or from testing and adding elements along with water changes.

Folks can measure potassium, iron and iodide and other things and maintain them with or without water changes. I do test them periodically but rarely see a need to add any in my sytsem; other's do as tanks are different.
Unfortunately, many things can't be measured with hobby equipment in meaningful ways. That doesn't mean they are unnecessary.

The no water change efforts outlined to date are at best incomplete ,IMO, with respect to supplementation and the removal issue for excess metals et alia not just for organic waste.

On the other hand I do, however, think large irregular water changes can change the biology and chemistry of the tank in significant though perhaps not readily apparent ways in terms of free heavy metal additions, exposing animals to the air,depletion of other elements and useful organics and other shifts.

FWIW,small regular changes are my preference .

 

[AquariumNut]

If your system cant process excess food build up and such you should start your aquarium over your doing something wrong

 

[OrionN]

I have about 500 gal in my total system. I change 50 gal once a week which is really over done it. It is easy for me. I everything in my fish room with a 55 gal container. I just mix 1 bag of IO every week on Sunday, then change tie water next saturday. Colect RO water overnight to mis the salt on Sunday.
I also raise clown fish. The great water from my DT system keep my babies for been develope deformities. The fry tanks got drain, then water from DT pump to the fry tanks. Then the new water got pump to the DT. The I turn the valve on to collect RO water. I have it set up where I just turn valves on and off, turn pumps on and off. The hardest part for me is to dump the salt in my container and use a home made paddle to stir the holding tank.